Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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John2
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by John2 »

Bird talks about Aristobulus, Herodion, Narcissus and their possible connection to the Herodian dynasty here (though he sees Herodion as a Herodian slave rather than as Aristobulus's son):

https://books.google.com/books?id=pU0VC ... ul&f=false

So all Eisenman is doing is adding Paul's Epaphroditus to this group, which makes sense given that one was arguably Nero's secretary (like Narcissus, and no one seems to have a problem seeing him as Paul's friend), highly literate, involved with messages, "a man who is a lover of all kind of learning, but is principally delighted with the knowledge of history, and this on account of his having been himself concerned in great affairs, and many turns of fortune" and "an enthusiastic supporter of persons with the ability to produce some useful or beautiful work," and the other belonged to the household of Caesar and was Paul's "brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by John2 »

Regarding the identity of Herodion and whether he was Paul's relative or fellow countryman, Holland writes, "The greeting gives little away about Herodion. Indeed, the virtual silence supports the view that he was a blood relative as there seems to be little point in Paul isolating one of has many countrymen in Rome in order to send such a brief greeting" (and he also mentions the idea of Narcissus being Nero's secretary):

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZblMA ... er&f=false

The idea that he was Aristobulus's son has two things going for it. First, he is mentioned right after "the household of Aristobulus." Second, the name Herodion means "little Herod," like Caesarion means "little Caesar," which goes with the idea that he was Aristobulus' son Herod, the youngest namesake of Herod in the dynasty.

https://books.google.com/books?id=YiWMB ... ar&f=false
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MrMacSon
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Do these references to Herodion (& other references to 'known names') represent genuine persons?

or could they be attempts to co-opt 'authorities' to embellish the narrative? --or a combination of both?
John2
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by John2 »

Charles Wilson wrote:

"AHM Jones, Herods of Judaea, tells of the Greek Court ordered in the following manner: "Friends", "Honored Friends", "Guards of the Realm" and the highest ranking, "Kinsmen". Herod ordered his Court by this Classification System (Josephus, quote on request...) and it may be a Key to understanding "The Banquet", where you should sit at the Lowest End until you are "Honored by your Friends" as you move higher. When you see "Kinsman", it is noting a relation of Social Hierarchy, not "Family"."

I can't find that book online nor does your link to it work (if that's what it is). So I do request a Josephus quote or a citation from Jones.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 wrote:Charles Wilson wrote:

"AHM Jones, Herods of Judaea, tells of the Greek Court ordered in the following manner: "Friends", "Honored Friends", "Guards of the Realm" and the highest ranking, "Kinsmen". Herod ordered his Court by this Classification System (Josephus, quote on request...) and it may be a Key to understanding "The Banquet", where you should sit at the Lowest End until you are "Honored by your Friends" as you move higher. When you see "Kinsman", it is noting a relation of Social Hierarchy, not "Family"."

I can't find that book online nor does your link to it work (if that's what it is). So I do request a Josephus quote or a citation from Jones.
A H M Jones, Herods of Judaea, Oxford University Press, Ely House London W.1, c 1938, 1967, p. 83

“As he replaced the sacerdotal Sanhedrin by a secular council, so Herod built up to replace the old hereditary aristocracy a new aristocracy of service whose members should owe their rank and their wealth to him and to him alone. They were graded according to regular Hellenistic practice in progressive ranks of dignity, "the friends" being the lowest, then "the most honoured friends", then "the guards of the body", and finally "the kinsmen"; the last title, it may be noted, was like others purely honorific and implied no real relationship"

"Josephus, Wars..., Book 1, Chapter 23, Section 5:

"Now do you keep those in their places whom Caesar hath joined, and their father hath appointed; and do not you pay undue or unequal respects to them, but to every one according to the prerogative of their births; for he that pays such respects unduly, will thereby not make him that is honored beyond what his age requires so joyful, as he will make him that is dishonored sorrowful. As for the kindred and friends that are to converse with them, I will appoint them to each of them, and will so constitute them, that they may be securities for their concord; as well knowing that the ill tempers of those with whom they converse will produce quarrels and contentions among them; but that if these with whom they converse be of good tempers, they will preserve their natural affections for one another."

PS: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007I ... 1_1&sr=8-1
John2
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by John2 »

Charles,

Does Jones argue for this sense for Herodion in Rom. 16:11?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by Charles Wilson »

PS:

Luke 14: 8 - 10 (RSV):

[8] "When you are invited by any one to a marriage feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest a more eminent man than you be invited by him;
[9] and he who invited you both will come and say to you, `Give place to this man,' and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place.
[10] But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, `Friend, go up higher'; then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by Charles Wilson »

John2 wrote:Does Jones argue for this sense for Herodion in Rom. 16:11?
I don't remember. This valued book disappeared years ago from my library in unfortunate circumstances.
I don't think he argued that far into the NT.

CW
John2
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by John2 »

I haven't seen any arguments for that sense in Rom. 16:11, only for countryman or relative, and I've seen other references to Herod's "kinsmen" (in translation) with the latter sense, e.g., "certain of the king's relations (for some of those that were among them were Herod's kinsmen) should be put to death, because they had engaged in a war against a king of their own family."

https://books.google.com/books?id=2exAA ... en&f=false
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winningedge101
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Re: Top suspects that could have invented the historical Jes

Post by winningedge101 »

I don't know but my prime suspect is Mary. Maybe that one guy named James who everyone thought was Jesus's brother.
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