Why Mark and Luke?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Ehrman has said that the passages are ... designed to make the reader think that the author knew Paul. He writes in Forged:

...The author is making a claim about himself. He is not naming himself. He is simply claiming to be a traveling companion of Paul’s and therefore unusually well suited to give a “true” account of Paul’s message and mission. But he almost certainly was not a companion of Paul’s. On the one hand, he was writing long after Paul and his companions were dead.

.... This author wants his readers to think he is Paul’s companion and therefore has firsthand knowledge of Paul’s mission. Paul, in this account, agrees with the apostles before him, especially Peter and James, on every point of theological and practical importance. Peter and Paul were not at odds, as other authors were claiming ....Together they declared that salvation has gone to the Gentiles, who do not have to be Jews in order to be Christians.

Could the claims of being "traveling companions" or co-travellers be an attempt of preachers, communities, or so, to align themselves with the then new theology?

I doubt Ehrman's assertion that

"The earliest church was in firm and essential harmony."
Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

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MrMacSon wrote:Could the claims of being "traveling companions" or co-travellers be an attempt of preachers, communities, or so, to align themselves with then then new theology?
If so, I know of no evidence that the point was taken.
I doubt Ehrman's assertion that

"The earliest church was in firm and essential harmony."
Well, Ehrman doubts that, too. That is not his assertion; that is his summary of what he thinks Acts is asserting.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: ... That is not his assertion; that is his summary of what he thinks Acts is asserting.
ah, ok. I wondered, but read it that he was agreeing with it.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

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Ben C. Smith wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:Could the claims of being "traveling companions" or co-travellers be an attempt of preachers, communities, or so, to align themselves with the then new theology?
If so, I know of no evidence that the point was taken.
I'm not sure what you're saying there - that the point was taken by who?

(not I corrected my typo --" then then "
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

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MrMacSon wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:Could the claims of being "traveling companions" or co-travellers be an attempt of preachers, communities, or so, to align themselves with the then new theology?
If so, I know of no evidence that the point was taken.
I'm not sure what you're saying there - that the point was taken by who?
I am not aware of anyone who interpreted the traveling companion to represent anything other than a companion of Paul the apostle (at least, not until relatively modern times).
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John2
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

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Stephen wrote:

"It is also curious that Marcion is said to be a "ship-owner" and the we passages being associated with sea travel and being backhanded evidence for his intimacy with Paul. What are the odds of that?"

Since Luke appears to have used Josephus, maybe the sea travelling in Acts could have something to do with Josephus' sea travel (as Neil discusses here):

http://vridar.org/2007/04/25/the-shipwr ... ul-part-3/
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John2
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

Post by John2 »

Paul does mention being in three shipwrecks in 2 Cor. 11:25-26:

"three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been ... in danger at sea..."

Yet commentaries to this say:

"Not one of these shipwrecks is narrated in the Acts. The shipwreck of Acts 27 took place some years later."

Perhaps this leans in favor of the idea that Luke modeled the shipwreck in Acts on Josephus.
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gmx
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

Post by gmx »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
gmx wrote:Contrary to Ehrman, I think the intent to deceive is a pretty bold criticism of a document written two millennia ago, that we have very little data on with respect to its production.
What do you think of the Epistle of the Apostles, written in the first person plural as if penned by them? What about the gospel of Peter, written in the first person in the name of the prince of apostles and accepted as genuinely Petrine in various quarters? What about 3 Corinthians, written as if by Paul? If these texts were not intended to deceive, what was their intent?
Thanks Ben, I wanted to really think this one through. I admit to being less familiar with the texts you mention, so I'll try not to over-reach.

The Gospel of Peter is a great example of the problems inherent in determining the intent of a writing two millenia after its creation. The suggested range for its date of composition is a century, anywhere from pre-dating the canonical gospels to being conspicuously "2nd gen". How could one possibly determine the intent behind the first person literary device in a writing that we have no understanding of with respect to its date of composition or its Sitz im Leben?

There are possible explanations that do not involve deceit:
  • it was written by Peter
  • it was collated by followers of Peter after his death using first-person stories he had passed onto them orally.
  • there was never any such person as Peter, which the intended audience understood... ie the name "Peter" was itself a literary device that was understood by both the author and audience
  • Peter is a genuine historical figure but the document was written so far after the time of the historical Peter that its author and audience understood the usage as a literary device, rather than as an appropriation of identity & credentials
Ehrman is right in saying that for 1800 years these writings were taken on trust, at face value, on the authority of the church, as genuine & historically trustworthy documents written by apostles. However, his "certainty" that they are now clearly deceitful literary forgeries is no better. Both views are primarily based on supposition. No one knows when the document was written, where it was written, or for what purpose (other than that it is Christian). So evidentially, we have no external clue as to the intent of the author. We know very little other than it was either unknown or discarded by those responsible for the canon.

That's my view.
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andrewcriddle
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Re: Why Mark and Luke?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
gmx wrote:Contrary to Ehrman, I think the intent to deceive is a pretty bold criticism of a document written two millennia ago, that we have very little data on with respect to its production.
What do you think of the Epistle of the Apostles, written in the first person plural as if penned by them? What about the gospel of Peter, written in the first person in the name of the prince of apostles and accepted as genuinely Petrine in various quarters? What about 3 Corinthians, written as if by Paul? If these texts were not intended to deceive, what was their intent?
I suspect (though I can't prove) that authorship by the Apostles as a group was not intended to be taken literally.
The way in which '"church orders" supposedly by the Apostles were written and rewritten would make more sense if everyone understood that the attribution was a convention.

Andrew Criddle
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