Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

The string of "if" statements regarding Marcion seems to apply mainly, if not only, to speculations about Marcion's motive for including or excluding certain elements of the text (such as the title, or the lack thereof), not to speculations about what is in the text itself. This is consonant with my suspicion that Tertullian has no direct access to traditions surrounding Marcion's compositional or publication process; he is surmising or even assuming what must have happened in order to explain the existence of canonical Luke and the Marcionite text. Tertullian is doing, in other words, exactly what we are forced to do, since we do not possess any direct access to Marcion's process, either; we can look only to the resultant texts, however fragmentary and uncertain they may be.
Secret Alias wrote:So after spending so much time laying the groundwork for Luke being the original text of the M gospel forged in recent times - are we really to believe that T just shifted gears and argued from the late and recently corrupted gospel text of M against M? Odd that he never says he is using M's gospel against M.
Does he not do exactly that at various times, even claiming somewhere that it is his policy? He writes in 4.34, for example:

Since, however, you are to be refuted out of the Scriptures which you have received, I will meet you on your own ground, as if your Christ were mine.

And several times he gloats that even what Marcion has included about God or Christ in his gospel proves Tertullian's view of God or Christ, not Marcion's.
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Right but isn't the point of the first five chapters to demonstrate that M received Luke? This is the question of all questions. Once we get to chapter 5 and the claim that M received Luke and corrupted it which direction did the rest of the exposition take? Was it that T said, I will prove that (a) there aren't two gods from Luke the gospel M received or (b) the gospel M corrupted and passed on to his followers? I see no evidence for (b) other than it isn't an argument a reasonable person trying to get at the truth would make. But what sense does (a) make? Does anyone believe that you could disprove Marxism from Marx's writings? T's arguments are such that the proper reading of any passage in Luke leads to orthodox conclusions. But with the minor changes attributed to M there simply isn't any support for the doctrines of M. That's a fact. Take Luke 4 and the flying Jesus section. Are we really to believe that additional passages existed in Tatian's Diatessaron (as outlined by Baarda) but that these additions DID NOT exist in M's gospel supposedly culled exclusively from Luke? That's ridiculous. But this is what you have to accept when you out forward that T is using the gospel of M to write AM. I say this is nonsense and that T is merely using Luke against M because - he spends so much time asserting in the first few chapters - M received Luke. So by only a slight sleight of hand "the scriptures M received" opens the door to using Luke against M.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Post by Bernard Muller »

Likewise, if Tertullian tells us that the Marcionite gospel cut out something from Luke that we find only in Matthew, that is not evidence that the Marcionite gospel (in any form) contained that text. But it is evidence that Tertullian (or somebody) has weird ideas about what Luke is supposed to contain. And I can imagine several scenarios to explain this:

Tertullian (or one of his sources) was working from memory, accidentally ascribing to Luke what he actually would have found only in Matthew, had he bothered to look it up.
Tertullian was reworking a source which originally compared the Marcionite gospel to Matthew, or to two or more different gospels, or to a gospel harmony, and did not always make the corrections he should have.
Tertullian (or one of his sources) actually possessed a copy of Luke which contained stuff that we now find only in Matthew, probably due to the harmonization process that we find all over the gospel records, but his version of Luke has been lost to history.
About material appearing only in gMatthew, I do not think Tertullian said specifically it was cut off from gLuke, but rather implied it was cut off from gMarcion.
Tertullian considered his gospel as the ensemble of the four canonical gospels. He blamed Marcion to have worked from only one of these four gospels (and then truncated it), overlooking the other ones, and then make it his gospel
That entitled Tertullian to accuse Marcion to have cut off material (appearing in gMatthew) which would go against Marcion's preaching.

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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Ben,

Yes we have to be "fair" to T. This is what I think you are asking for. We can't just assume that he was dishonest or making dishonest arguments. Fair enough. But the other side of the coin is that we can't make T say things he never said either, we can't transform him into a responsible scholar "seeking after the truth" and more importantly we have to also be fair to M. Is it really possible that M could have established a wildly successful religion of Jesus as a supernatural being who came from an unknown God from a slightly shortened text of Luke with slightly different words and punctuation? Come on this is ridiculous. But let's ask another question. Is it likely that T attacked M with a slightly shortened text of Luke with slightly different words and punctuation because he thought M was responsible for changing "you" from "them" in 5:14 and the like or T used a text of Luke which he considered "apostolic" and which happened to have "you" from "them" in 5:14 and the like against M because M corrupted THIS pure exemplar and then fails to identify the many perhaps countless corruptions perpetrated on that pure text of Luke by M? My understanding is fairer and more sympathetic to both parties than assuming that M and his followers developed ideas from Luke that simply can't be supported from Luke or Luke with slightly different words and punctuation - in short that M and his followers were irrational raving lunatics, the typical Patristic trope of unrepentant and irredeemable heretics.
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Secret Alias wrote:Is it really possible that M could have established a wildly successful religion of Jesus as a supernatural being who came from an unknown God from a slightly shortened text of Luke with slightly different words and punctuation?
To be clear, I do not think that Marcion abbreviated our canonical Luke at all. I think that he used a proto-gospel which Luke also used, and I actually lean toward the position that he used that proto-gospel conservatively; that is, he did not necessarily edit it very much; it was probably just a gospel text that he received from his religious forebears. He twisted its meaning toward his own ends in the same way that the orthodox twisted the meanings of "their" gospels toward their own ends.

Therefore, when you make statements like this...:
My understanding is fairer and more sympathetic to both parties than assuming that M and his followers developed ideas from Luke that simply can't be supported from Luke or Luke with slightly different words and punctuation - in short that M and his followers were irrational raving lunatics, the typical Patristic trope of unrepentant and irredeemable heretics.
...just please be aware that you are not referencing my own view of these texts. I do not think that Marcion is a lunatic while the orthodox or proto-orthodox are the sane ones. I think that both parties warped and twisted and added to what they inherited in their own distinct ways.
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Ben C. Smith wrote:He twisted its meaning toward his own ends in the same way that the orthodox twisted the meanings of "their" gospels toward their own ends.
My problem with this view is that, while I may imagine easily how Marcion could have ''twisted its meaning toward his own ends'', I don't see how the orthodox twisted the meanings of an hypothetical proto-Luke toward their own ends, since all that is necessary for the orthodox is to have a Gospel where the father of Jesus is the creator god. Period. (They could even close an eye about an Gospel potentially adoptionistic, as Mark, for that matter: it was sufficient, for them, the requisite of the identity of the father of Jesus).


Therefore, to say that both the orthodox and Marcion coopted a proto-gospel is equivalent to say that Marcion coopted an orthodox proto-gospel.

I think that this will be precisely the argument of Vinzent against Klinghardt.

Note that Luke called Joseph a ''just man''. Even when Jesus has to have an ''adopted father'', he is ''just'' as well as the God of the Jews.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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No:

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No:

Image

Yes:

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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
According to you, when would the canonical version be written? Before or after the Marcionite version?
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Ben

I am not saying that you believe these things. I am addressing a generic position which uses T and E uncritically
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Re: Luke prior to Gospel of Marcion ?

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Bernard Muller wrote:According to you, when would the canonical version be written? Before or after the Marcionite version?
My suspicion is that our current, canonical version of Luke, with its obvious attachment to the Acts and so forth, postdates the gospel that Marcion would have published in his lifetime (assuming that Marcion existed, and yada yada). But that is only part of the story, for I suspect that both Luke and the Marcionite gospel developed over time, often adding and sometimes subtracting individual passages and verses and phrases.

On your website, Bernard, you sketch out a sort of back-and-forth textual relationship between Luke and John. I personally am inclined to think that this sort of back-and-forth textual exchange of creative harmonizations and occasional deviations characterizes all of the early Christian gospel texts. The differences between my approach and yours would be (A) that there are more layers than you propose, (B) that I doubt you or I or anybody can reconstruct the various layers as completely as you have suggested for Luke and John, and (C) that the same back-and-forth process probably also affected the noncanonical gospels, including the gospel of the Hebrews and, yes, that of Marcion.

My approach is closer to that of David C. Parker, who writes on pages 121-122 of The Living Gospels:

I am proposing that the evidence does not permit us to attempt a documentary solution. I am not thereby denying the existence of documents. I do not attempt to deny the substantial reality of Mark. His style alone is a sufficient criterion for us to know him in bulk from Matthew or Luke. But a documentary solution requires more than the degree of detail needed to know Mark from Matthew. It requires published editions, in which every last word, syllable and letter is known. It is this discernible, published precision which is lacking. The reason for the lack is not - as it might seem I was about to conclude — that we do not have the evidence to recover precisely what the evangelists wrote. It is that the comparison of published editions assumes, in its two-dimensional diagrams, that there is a single point of contact between two texts, for example, the single contact when Matthew copied Mark, and there was an end of the matter. I am proposing a three-dimensional diagram, in which the third dimension represents a series of contacts between texts each of which may have changed since the previous contact. For example, Matthew copies bits out of Mark in reproducing a tradition; then a later copy of Mark is enriched by some of Matthew's alterations; and next a copy of Matthew (already different from the one we began with) is influenced by something from the also changed Mark. Add in Luke, and oral tradition, and any other sources that might have been available, at any points in the development that you please, and you have a process a good deal less recoverable than any documentary hypothesis. It is not at all the orderly business we had hoped, and looks instead like molecules bouncing around and off each other in bewildering fashion.

It may be that I will be considered to be offering what has been called a complex solution, in distinction to the simple solutions such as those of Streeter and Farrer. Such a solution is presented by Boismard, who discerns over a dozen documents, some existing in earlier and later forms. But there is a major difference. I am not attempting to identify and to name sources or to recover layers. I am suggesting that the evidence is not of a kind to permit one to demonstrate the existence of the many documents posited by such theories. Thus, while Boismard's solution, like Streeter's argument for Proto-Luke, along with other theories, may be close to mine in recognising more than one point of contact between the Gospels, we differ more than we agree.

The same must be said after comparing my suggestion with the Deutero-Markus theory. I agree that the copy of Mark used by Matthew will not have been identical to the copies available to us. I would add that Matthew's copy will have been different also from Mark's autograph (unless he used the autograph, which must be regarded as improbable), and that Luke's copy will have been different again. But Deutero-Mark is a document, an edition. In contrast to that, I am proposing that we should be thinking of a process, and that the solid blocks of the documentary hypotheses prove to be at best soft and crumbling rock, at worst slowly shifting sand. Let us suppose, for example, that somebody who has read newly written Matthew copies Mark from a manuscript already different from the version known to Matthew, and introduces (intentionally or inadvertently) a few Matthaeanisms, and that Luke worked with such a copy. Who is to say that such a thing is impossible? That such confusing things occurred at a later date may be demonstrated from the manuscripts. A manuscript may harmonise a passage in Luke to Matthew; when we look at the Matthaean parallel in that manuscript, we find that it has a quite different form of the text from that taken into the Lukan version. This phenomenon may be found many times in Codex Bezae, one of the most frequently harmonising manuscripts. At its most extreme, we might say that every copying of a Gospel is, in the sense required by source criticism, a separate document, for it will to a greater or lesser extent be different from any other copy.

Please note from the above that this approach does not, at its best, exploit this postulated confusion in the interests of defending certain highly specific reconstructions ("well, anything could have happened, so this did"). On the other hand, acknowledging the confusion also does not prevent one from suggesting certain identifiable waystations along the path of development (as Parker himself does above with the "substantial reality of Mark"), based on specific criteria, and I tend to view the Marcionite text as one of those waystations.

Ben.
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