My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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lpetrich
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:13 am

Jesus Christ scores low in gMark because Mark skips over all of his early life. Without the childhood parts, the other gospels have similar scores, and some other legendary heroes have similar scores, heroes like Krishna, Theseus, Romulus, and King Arthur.

archibald
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by archibald » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:17 am

Tell me this lpertich, you don't, by any chance, have a general fondness for, you know, ufo stuff, extra-terrestrials and science fiction, do you?

:)

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lpetrich
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:21 am

archibald wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:03 am
lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:32 am
Prophecy fulfillment is something that never happens to well-documented people in modern times.
I don't think you are following cults all that well. Which is probably a good idea for you, because if you did you might find that as well as prophecies being not unusual, ...
What prophecies?

archibald
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by archibald » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:49 am

lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:21 am
What prophecies?
Far, far too many. Common as muck. Google is your friend.

You could start with this book, 'When Prophecy Fails'. It is particularly interested in a 1950's US cult about UFOs and extra-terrestrials bringing the end of the world. It might be right up your street.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00613 ... 0061311324

Bernard Muller
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:47 am

I have my own conclusions for the rating of gMark & gMatthew according to the Rank-Raglan scale, plus my debate with Carrier on the topic:
http://historical-jesus.info/99.html
Another post on Rank-Raglan, where I show the mythologization of gospel Jesus is a lot less abrupt from an existing one than from a mythical one:
http://historical-jesus.info/102.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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lpetrich
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:50 am

archibald wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:49 am
lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:21 am
What prophecies?
Far, far too many. Common as muck. Google is your friend.

You could start with this book, 'When Prophecy Fails'. It is particularly interested in a 1950's US cult about UFOs and extra-terrestrials bringing the end of the world. It might be right up your street.
That's a prophecy of something in the future, and that's a separate issue. What's relevant here is some prophecy of the coming of a cult leader. But that seems to be rather rare. Thus making them like notable people in the broader world -- nobody has any idea that they were coming.

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lpetrich
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:00 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:47 am
I have my own conclusions for the rating of gMark & gMatthew according to the Rank-Raglan scale, plus my debate with Carrier on the topic:
http://historical-jesus.info/99.html
Another post on Rank-Raglan, where I show the mythologization of gospel Jesus is a lot less abrupt from an existing one than from a mythical one:
http://historical-jesus.info/102.html
I am not impressed. That seems to be excessively literal-minded. If one interpreted Lord Raglan's hero profile like that for other legendary heroes, then it would be hard for anyone to have a high score.

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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by archibald » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:33 pm

lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:50 am
That's a prophecy of something in the future, and that's a separate issue.
You were talking about prophecies about the past?
lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:50 am
What's relevant here is some prophecy of the coming of a cult leader. But that seems to be rather rare. Thus making them like notable people in the broader world -- nobody has any idea that they were coming.
I didn't realise you meant only prophecies about messiahs. I could give you a list of modern or recent messianic claimants? For starters, I can think of at least a dozen for which there are photographs, for instance, from a variety of religions and cults around the world. There's even a UFO messiah.

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lpetrich
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:29 pm

archibald wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:17 am
Tell me this lpertich, you don't, by any chance, have a general fondness for, you know, ufo stuff, extra-terrestrials and science fiction, do you?
So what about that?

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lpetrich
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Post by lpetrich » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:46 pm

archibald wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:33 pm
lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:50 am
That's a prophecy of something in the future, and that's a separate issue.
You were talking about prophecies about the past?
Yes, prophecies of the coming of leaders and heroes. Where are the prophecies of the coming of George Washington or Charles Darwin? To name only two recent examples.
lpetrich wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:50 am
What's relevant here is some prophecy of the coming of a cult leader. But that seems to be rather rare. Thus making them like notable people in the broader world -- nobody has any idea that they were coming.
I didn't realise you meant only prophecies about messiahs. I could give you a list of modern or recent messianic claimants? For starters, I can think of at least a dozen for which there are photographs, for instance, from a variety of religions and cults around the world. There's even a UFO messiah.
UFO contactee Rael? He was race-car driver and automotive journalist Claude Vorilhon.

BTW, the followers of UFO contactee Billy Meier consider him the One True Contactee, with others like George Adamski and Rael being frauds.

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