My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

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outhouse wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:No, but it helps to quantify it, or to quantify components of either case. After all, we are talking probabilities within a continuum from 0.00 (ie. 0%) to 1.00 (ie. 100%).
I see scholars doing this now in vague terms but it gets the point across. They will use terms like heavily debated which means 50/50 or even 60/40 and some times 70/30.
I'd say 'heavily-debated' means just that -i.e. heavily-debated.

The % or Probability refers to likelihood (or probability) --or to unlikelihood (or improbability).
outhouse wrote: Or consensus which means 90% to 95%
Consensus can mean anything above 50% --as in election results.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote:It would be interesting to know what Carrier's argument is for such a 'proto-Jesus' in item 3 ... gnostic/docetic tales? (+/- Paul?)
Dr Carrier mainly uses Ascension of Isaiah, Book of Hebrews, Plutarch's 'Isis and Osiris' as supportive evidence, and he is blatantly wrong on each -- see Section 4 of my review of OHJ.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
timhendrix
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by timhendrix »

GakuseiDon wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:It would be interesting to know what Carrier's argument is for such a 'proto-Jesus' in item 3 ... gnostic/docetic tales? (+/- Paul?)
Dr Carrier mainly uses Ascension of Isaiah, Book of Hebrews, Plutarch's 'Isis and Osiris' as supportive evidence, and he is blatantly wrong on each -- see Section 4 of my review of OHJ.
Do you have a link?
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Giuseppe
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

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Tim, since I suspect that Neil is alluding to gDon's review when he writes:
As for the question of mythicism, while the Doherty-Carrier view has become the most well-publicized view it has never been the only (nor always the most “popular”) Christ Myth hypothesis. The argument for it is indeed strong and stands quite apart from the AoI. Only those who have never read Doherty or Carrier but only the works of critics who likewise have only skimmed their works and constructed straw-man versions of their theses would think removing the AoI undercuts their arguments.
(my bold)

I suggest you do not overlook how Doherty himself replied about the gDon's criticism.

http://vridar.org/2011/02/02/jesus-cruc ... mment-8367

Parvus's view on the same page may be useful.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by GakuseiDon »

timhendrix wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
MrMacSon wrote:It would be interesting to know what Carrier's argument is for such a 'proto-Jesus' in item 3 ... gnostic/docetic tales? (+/- Paul?)
Dr Carrier mainly uses Ascension of Isaiah, Book of Hebrews, Plutarch's 'Isis and Osiris' as supportive evidence, and he is blatantly wrong on each -- see Section 4 of my review of OHJ.
Do you have a link?
Hi Tim Hendrix. My review of Dr Carrier's OHJ is here: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseid ... eview.html

I wrote the review in 2015. Any comments or problems you find in my review (I do mention you in the Bayes Theorem section) would be appreciated!
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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GakuseiDon
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote:I suggest you do not overlook how Doherty himself replied about the gDon's criticism.

http://vridar.org/2011/02/02/jesus-cruc ... mment-8367
Doherty basically said I was right in my criticism, and probably right in the implications (that the earlier S/L2 version implies the Beloved came to earth), as I explain in my review of Doherty's Jesus: Neither God Nor Man. Doherty wrote that "in your form" in S/L2 is "a reference to human form and probably a reference to earth". Doherty's response to my review (and to this important point) is on his website here: http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/CritiquesDonJNGNM.htm

However, let's keep the focus on Carrier's use, since I don't want to rehash Doherty stuff. Carrier uses the same argument as Doherty, thus makes the same mistake of missing "in your form" in The Ascension of Isaiah, and missing that important implication.
Giuseppe wrote:Parvus's view on the same page may be useful.
Thanks, Giuseppe. That's fair minded of you, since Parvus -- a fan of Doherty's work -- nevertheless disagrees with Doherty (and by extension Carrier) on AoI. Parvus writes:
  • GakuseiDon, I want to acknowledge that I am a fan of Earl’s website and his books. I have learned a lot from his work. He convinced me years ago that the Son in the Pauline letters was not the Jesus of the Gospels. But his theory that the Son’s crucifixion was believed to have occurred somewhere other than earth is something I’ve never been able to embrace. And I don’t see it in the L2/S version of “The Ascension of Isaiah.” I see no indication in that text that the Son in his circuit skipped earth.
Giuseppe: seriously, rather than spending time wondering what other people think, why not just look into this by examining the primary material yourself? I lay things out in my review, so it is just a matter of cross-referencing my comments with that of Carrier's in OHJ and the various versions of AoI (though finding the S and L versions can be a little difficult). Then you will know!
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

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Thanks for the link Guiseppe, I had noticed your review previously but I just didn't realize you were the author. Do you know if Carrier has written a response? I hope to get time to read it more closely tomorrow and might ask silly questions. I like the way you tried to stick with Carriers format and give your own probability estimates.
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by GakuseiDon »

timhendrix wrote:Thanks for the link Guiseppe, I had noticed your review previously but I just didn't realize you were the author. Do you know if Carrier has written a response? I hope to get time to read it more closely tomorrow and might ask silly questions. I like the way you tried to stick with Carriers format and give your own probability estimates.
(I assume you mean me) Sure, I'm happy to respond to any questions, either here or via PM. While reading my review, keep in mind that I am an amateur in the topic of history, with no qualifications and no ability to read the ancient languages of the time. I'd be particularly happy with your thoughts on Section 2, where I look at Carrier's use of Bayes Theorem.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Giuseppe
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by Giuseppe »

The author of the review is gDon, Tim.

gDon, to form my definitive opinion about the Asc. of Isaiah, I should read before this interesting book, especially the article of Roig Lanzillotta found in it, ''The Cosmology of the Ascension of Isaiah : Analysis and Re-Assessment of the Text’s Cosmological Framework''.

At moment, I see that even the view by a conservative scholar confirms the indipendence of that text from any Gospel ''tradition'':
It is not possible in my advice to show that it [the Asc. of Is.] uses the Gospels later became canonical, while it is clear that it uses traditions very near to these used by the evangelist Matthew.
(my rapid translation from E.Norelli, Ancora sulla genesi dell’Ascensione di Isaia)

Therefore we are lucky to have a text that preserves a (pre-?)Christian tradition ignoring the Gospels. I think that just to show mercy to historicist thesis, Dr. Carrier has not set that text in his calculations of of the posterior probability. I think that an ''agnostic'' position about the Asc. of Isaiah (once we reconstruct the original text) is not allowed: that text is either historicist or it is mythicist. Tertium non datur.


At moment, I think that the original text is already evidence of mythicism by the mere fact that the person who first felt embarrassed (or surprised) by the absence of any reference to a Gospel Jesus was precisely the Christian interpolator who inserted the ''pocket gospel'' in it. This is an even different situation from Paul's epistles, lacking of any interpolated ''pocket gospel'' of similar kind. If someone did feel the desperate need of adding the ''pocket gospel'', then he was very surprised by his absence in the original text, even more than us.

And note that this is different from the marcionite Jesus, who does at least a lot of things on Earth before to die.

Note that nothing is said about the precise location of the 'tree' where the Son is crucified. If that 'tree' is on this Earth, where precisely? In America? In China? In Israel? We don't know. Everywhere means nowhere. As the Eden of Genesis when it is thought to be in this world.

From that point of view, I want to make me sure that prof Norelli is wrong when he says that some bits of the 'pocket gospel' (the birth of the Son later found in Matthew, too) were part of the original text. If Norelli is right, then the Asc. of Isaiah, in my view, is evidence of historicity.

En passant, I see that 9.12 reads:

And this Beloved will descend in the form in which you will soon see him descend - that is to say, in the last days, the Lord who will be called Christ, will descend into the world.
''called Christ'' is the same construct found in Antiquities 20.200. As a Christian interpolation, no surprise that it is found in a Christian text.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
timhendrix
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Re: My review of Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Je

Post by timhendrix »

GakuseiDon wrote:
timhendrix wrote:Thanks for the link Guiseppe, I had noticed your review previously but I just didn't realize you were the author. Do you know if Carrier has written a response? I hope to get time to read it more closely tomorrow and might ask silly questions. I like the way you tried to stick with Carriers format and give your own probability estimates.
(I assume you mean me) Sure, I'm happy to respond to any questions, either here or via PM. While reading my review, keep in mind that I am an amateur in the topic of history, with no qualifications and no ability to read the ancient languages of the time. I'd be particularly happy with your thoughts on Section 2, where I look at Carrier's use of Bayes Theorem.
I have been reading your review over the weekend and I think I understand most of it now :-). One thing that surprised me was that if I didn't know any better I would have thought I had simply structured my review around section 2 of yours... as far as I can tell we point out exactly the same things:

1) The problem of inflation of errors in BT (section 2 beginning)
2) That h and ~h are defined as specific hypothesis and not simply as "existence or not" and that they are not (as would be implied by the notation and subsequent computations) each others negation
3) That the Rank-Raglan prior computation appears to ignore this
4) ...and we are both puzzled by the quote on p245 that it does not matter how Jesus came to be a RR hero because it never happened to historical figures
5) we both immediately think that the principles can be applied to other reference classes to give inconsistent results

If there is one thing that I think is possibly important to stress it would be that I think the specific way ~h is defined (as opposed to the more generic "Jesus did not exist" hypothesis) *potentially* could have a large impact on how easily the data is explained and so the definition of ~h and h affects all factors.

I am honestly surprised at how much of the historical information in OHJ which can be questioned. For instance I thought Carriers interpretation of the Ascension of Isiah was pretty rock solid, but your discussion and thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2346

just makes a lot of sense. I can see how one can interpret this nearly any way with some levity, but at the moment the text seems to make more sense as a description of how a heavenly being ended up dying on earth than anything else.

A point about the Gospels you highlight:
Since the Gospels, Paul and other early epistles talk about a crucified Jesus Christ whom was a descendent of David, I believe that even if we discount nearly all of the Gospels' content as unverifiable, then the mere existence of the same character appearing in the epistles of Paul and in the Gospels needs to be evaluated. But this, again, is an argument for another day.
There are two things that worries me. First that it seems like Carrier ends up discarding everything in the gospels as historically irrelevant, just with the exception of the RR-related information which turns out to be hugely historically relevant.. That seems a bit too convenient.

Secondly that the gospels is an excellent illustration of how the specific form of ~h helps explaining the evidence. Since we assume in ~h that Christians believed or taught a historical Jesus (at some point) it would seem that given ~h we can explain *any* amount of historical details about Jesus found in christian writings because ~h already assumes that was what Christians actually believed.

I think it is a bit odd Carrier haven't responded directly to your review considering how many other reviews of much worse quality he has discussed, but perhaps it is a time issue.
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