Mysteries I Am Too Stupid to Solve: Cerinthus & Corinthian

[Duvduv]

I can imagine how ancient apologists made a mish-mash of many things and people, and created sects where none existed in the first or second or other centuries to solidify their own position as the official State Religion. But a Jewish rabbinically-oriented Cerinthus in the first century as described in the apologetics?? Cerinthus - Shmerinthus........AT LEAST if it were possible to supply information from mutually antagonistic sources about the same third party, there'd be something to go on. But this?

[stephan happy huller]

But why does 'official state religion' come into play? If there was no such a thing as Christianity before the fourth century (as is often suggested here) why invent a tradition that a rival tradition existed? In monarchianism the power and authority of God is proved by the fact that his message was adamantine - i.e. could not be corrupted. Heresies only appear because in some form the 'true message' was overcome. This would only be introduced into the story of Christianity because a priori to the narrative the original message had been corrupted or at least that a variant tradition existed. It is a lot like the story of the Epikorians in the rabbinic tradition. No one would invent heresies unless something like a heresy existed a priori. No one would give them an early date. Saying that they 'recently arose' is a common trick among orthodox believers. In other words, the official community always claims heresies 'were just invented' rather than were well established.

So:

1. no one would claim the existence of heresies that didn't exist because it implies God's message could be overcome
and
2. no one would give existent heresies longevity because it would add to their prestige and authority.

[ph2ter]

Merinthus is from Greek μήρινθος - cord, rope.

That recalls Paul's escape from Damascus in a basket made of a plaited rope.

[ph2ter]

Maybe I have gone too far, but ...

Paul says for himself that he was an aborted baby (1 Cor 15:8 - ektroma).

The latin word funiculus, which is of the same meaning as merinthos in Greek, commonly refers to the umbilical cord attaching a fetus to the placenta during pregnancy.
One of the abortion methods is to cut the umbilical cord of a fetus.
As well, the umbilical cord wrapped around baby's neck in a knot during labor cuts off oxygen. It can results in brain damage at birth, and lacking normal growth afterwards.

[DCHindley]

Actually,

None of the accounts of Paul's escape says by what means he and his basket (σπυρίς) were lowered down (both the verbs καθῆκαν and χαλάσαντες) the wall (τοῦ τείχους). No rope is mentioned, much less whether it was plaited or not. It could have been by means of a bed sheet for all we know.

DCH

Merinthus is from Greek μήρινθος - cord, rope.

That recalls Paul's escape from Damascus in a basket made of a plaited rope.

[Duvduv]

Must have been doesn't confirm there were any self identified Jewish Christian communities anywhere. No evidence in any Jewish texts.

I don't know but there must have been Jewish Christians who were later connected with "Cerinthus"

[ph2ter]

Actually,

None of the accounts of Paul's escape says by what means he and his basket (σπυρίς) were lowered down (both the verbs καθῆκαν and χαλάσαντες) the wall (τοῦ τείχους). No rope is mentioned, much less whether it was plaited or not. It could have been by means of a bed sheet for all we know.

DCH

But the actual word is σαργάνῃ (not σπυρίς) defined as 'a plaited rope, hence a hamper, basket'.
Sargane probably comes from Hebrew śârag (שׂרג) meaning 'to be intertwined'. Hardly a bed sheet.

[Duvduv]

Well, judging from the sheer number of "heresies" alleged to have existed early on, it certainly does more than enough to establish a scenario of authenticity for the older existence of the official religion, predating the Romans. I guess you'd have to ask a relative handful of apologists, i.e. "Eusebius" - the official chronicler for the Byzantine regime.
And since it is a matter of faith in the integrity of a "Eusebius" it should be admitted that the "evidence" is from faith in the chronicler and not in any empirical evidence.

But why does 'official state religion' come into play? If there was no such a thing as Christianity before the fourth century (as is often suggested here) why invent a tradition that a rival tradition existed? In monarchianism the power and authority of God is proved by the fact that his message was adamantine - i.e. could not be corrupted. Heresies only appear because in some form the 'true message' was overcome. This would only be introduced into the story of Christianity because a priori to the narrative the original message had been corrupted or at least that a variant tradition existed. It is a lot like the story of the Epikorians in the rabbinic tradition. No one would invent heresies unless something like a heresy existed a priori. No one would give them an early date. Saying that they 'recently arose' is a common trick among orthodox believers. In other words, the official community always claims heresies 'were just invented' rather than were well established.

So:

1. no one would claim the existence of heresies that didn't exist because it implies God's message could be overcome
and
2. no one would give existent heresies longevity because it would add to their prestige and authority.

[stephan happy huller]

But there never was any question or controversy about the existence of Christianity in the early period until the birth of Pete the mountain goat. So you are arguing that the ancient writers were preparing a defense in anticipation of the advent of our moronic companion here at the forum

[DCHindley]

Are you calling the author of Acts 9:25 a liar?

NA-27 λαβόντες δὲ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ νυκτὸς διὰ τοῦ τείχους καθῆκαν αὐτὸν χαλάσαντες ἐν σπυρίδι.
RSV but his disciples took him by night and let him down over the wall, lowering him in a basket.

But you are referring, of course, to 2 Cor 11:33.

NA-27 καὶ διὰ θυρίδος ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ.
RSV but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands.

AFAIK, the Greek word σαργάνη describes the basket itself, not the means by which it was lowered. I'll grant that Strong's Concordance calls it "a plaited rope, hence a hamper, basket" but defines it as "a basket, generally of twisted cords." A review of various lexicons available in Bibleworks tells me that the word primarily refers to a basket of braided or plaited cords. Thayer's Greek lexicon has:

σαργάνῃ ((properly, 'braided-work', from the root, tark; Fick, Part iii., p. 598; Vanicek, p. 297)), σαργανης, ἡ;
1. a braided rope, a band (Aeschylus suppl. 788).
2. a basket, a basket made of ropes, a hamper (cf. B. D., under the word Basket): 2 Cor. 11:33; (Timocles, in Athen. 8, p. 339 e.; 9, p. 407 e.; (others)).

The initial reference is to Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 788.

The evil is no longer escapable; [785] my heart is darkened and trembling; the look-out my father held has brought me ruin. I am undone with terror. Rather would I meet my doom in a noose [790] than suffer the embraces of a man I loathe. Death before that, with Hades for my lord and master!

However, when I pull up that Greek text in Perseus, the word used is ἀρτάναις, "A. that by which something is hung up, rope, noose, halter."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... card%3D784

If one thinks about it, the ἐν before the word means "in." Are you suggesting Paul was wound up in a rope, and not in a basket made of rope?

I searched Perseus.org for all forms of the word σαργάνῃ, and I get this:

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists book 8, chapter 23: ... ἄπληστός ἐστι γάρ. ὅμως δὲ δοῦναί σοι κέλευσον σαργάνας αὐτὴν ταρίχους εὐπόρως γὰρ τυγχάνει ἔχουσα καὶ = Bid her give you a basket of cured fish;

book 9, chapter 73: ... Χαιρεφίλου πόρρωθεν ἀπιδὼν τὸν παχὺν ἐπόππυσ᾽, εἶτ᾽ ἐκέλευσε πέμπειν σαργάνας. ὅτι δὲ καὶ τῶν δήμων Ἀχαρνεὺς ὁ Τηλέμαχος = And then he bade him send some wicker baskets.

Lucian, Lexiphanes (ed. A. M. Harmon) (Greek) section 6: ... καὶ ὅσα ὀστράκινα τὸ δέρμα καὶ τεμάχη Ποντικὰ τῶν ἐκ σαργάνης καὶ κωπαΐδες καὶ ὄρνις σύντροφος καὶ ἀλεκτρυὼν ἤδη ἀπῳδὸς = Of submarine victuals, too, there were many sorts of selacian, all the ostraceans, cuts of Pontic tunny [a species of Tuna] in hanapers. [A hanaper is an old fashioned word for a wicker basket]

Aeneas Tacticus, Poliorcetica (ed. William Abbott Oldfather) (Greek) chapter XXIX: ... ἐν τοῖς ἐρίοις καὶ ἀχύροις κεκρυμμένα, καὶ ἄλλα εὐογκότερα ἐν σαργάναις ἀσταφίδος καὶ σύκων πλήρεσιν, ἐγχειρίδια δὲ ἐν ἀμφορεῦσι πυρῶν ... τὰ ἄγγη τῶν ἀχύρων καὶ ἐρίων ἐξεκένουν, οἱ δὲ τὰς σαργάνας ἀνέτεμνον, ἄλλοι δὲ τὰς κιβωτοὺς ἀνοίγοντες τὰ ὅπλα ἐξῄρουν, = 6 These cases [of smuggled arms] were then stored in a convenient spot near the market-place. In crates also and wicker frames and wrapped up in half-woven sail-cloth, spears and javelins were brought in, and, without arousing suspicion, placed where each would be serviceable. [the author was explaining how to smuggle soldiers and weapons into a city to attack from within, making a siege unnecessary]

DCH

Actually,

None of the accounts of Paul's escape says by what means he and his basket (σπυρίς) were lowered down (both the verbs καθῆκαν and χαλάσαντες) the wall (τοῦ τείχους). No rope is mentioned, much less whether it was plaited or not. It could have been by means of a bed sheet for all we know.

But the actual word is σαργάνῃ (not σπυρίς) defined as 'a plaited rope, hence a hamper, basket'.
Sargane probably comes from Hebrew śârag (שׂרג) meaning 'to be intertwined'. Hardly a bed sheet.