The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

(A) I think evidence can be produced that things spoken by the scriptures, by Jewish thinkers, and by Christian prophets and teachers were sometimes put onto the lips of Jesus; and (B) I think evidence can be produced that utterances were sometimes turned into events in the life of Jesus. If so, then that at least presses the question: which came first? And that makes me wonder.

I agree with both and I think it's a good reason to ask the question.

What point of view do you hold that (somehow) disqualifies you from deciding the question?

I simply doubt that a thing in Luke or Matthew or John could be earlier than Mark. I do not think it is impossible, but I doubt it. Therefore I'm not a good judge.

[MrMacSon]

I wonder, Kunigunde, what you make of Luke 13.6-9? Did Luke react twice to the cursing of the fig tree, once as a parable and then again as a story about a tax collector?

The parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13 (Lk13:6-9) follows the repent or perish passages, and Luke 13 also has the parable of mustard seed (Lk 13:18-19) which aligns with Matthew 17:20 (Jesus' response to the disciples query about driving a demon/demons from a boy) -

Matthew 17
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"

20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

This parable is also noteworthy in the context of a mountain as the first part of Matthew 17 has Jesus & the disciples 'Peter, James and John his brother' on a mountain where the transfiguration occurs (then there are references to Eijah & John the Baptist before the parable where Jesus heals the boy of a demon/demons).

I would count Luke 17:6 as a third reaction (removing Mark's „this mountain“ and including the „mulberry fig“ - Maybe because many mountains in GMark are related to the disciples?)

Mark 11:23? -

22 ...Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.

23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him."

- which also cross references to Matt 17:20 and to Matthew 21:21 -

Matthew 21
18 .. in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry.

19 Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

20 Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?"

21 Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done."

Then, in Matt 21, Jesus enters a temple and has his authority challenged by "the chief priests and the elders of the people" (Jesus, in turn, challenged them with a tricky question: "The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?" Matt21:27 And answering Jesus, they said, "We do not know." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things".)

[Ben C. Smith]

I wonder, Kunigunde, what you make of Luke 13.6-9? Did Luke react twice to the cursing of the fig tree, once as a parable and then again as a story about a tax collector?

The parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13 (Lk13:6-9) follows the repent or perish passages, and Luke 13 also has the parable of mustard seed (Lk 13:18-19) which aligns with Matthew 17:20 (Jesus' response to the disciples query about driving a demon/demons from a boy) -

Matthew 17
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"

20 And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

This parable is also noteworthy in the context of a mountain as the first part of Matthew 17 has Jesus & the disciples 'Peter, James and John his brother' on a mountain where the transfiguration occurs (then there are references to Eijah & John the Baptist before the parable where Jesus heals the boy of a demon/demons).

I would count Luke 17:6 as a third reaction (removing Mark's „this mountain“ and including the „mulberry fig“ - Maybe because many mountains in GMark are related to the disciples?)

Mark 11:23? -

22 ...Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.

23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him."

- which also cross references to Matt 17:20 and to Matthew 21:21 -

Matthew 21
18 .. in the morning, when He was returning to the city, He became hungry.

19 Seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." And at once the fig tree withered.

20 Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?"

21 Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done."

Then, in Matt 21, Jesus enters a temple and has his authority challenged by "the chief priests and the elders of the people" (Jesus, in turn, challenged them with a tricky question: "The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?" Matt21:27 And answering Jesus, they said, "We do not know." He also said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things".)

Yes, MrMacSon, those are all very relevant passages. I think you found most of the parallels that the Synopsis Quattuor Evangeliorum gives at this locus (the Synopsis adds all the passages dealing with asking with faith, as well, but those are not quite as closely related). Perusing them has given me an idea which I will work on for a subsequent post. Thanks.

[Ben C. Smith]

The theme of the thread is:

I'm curious, how many and which stories can be presented as further developments of Mark.

The cursing of the fig tree in Mark has already led to various parallels, and I want to explore a couple of them. I mentioned that I wonder whether the parable in Luke 13.6-9 might have led to the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree himself, but here I want to suggest for consideration precisely the opposite: that Luke neutered the cursing of the fig tree by turning it into a parable and moving it to a new context.

I would count Luke 17:6 as a third reaction (removing Mark's „this mountain“ and including the „mulberry fig“ - Maybe because many mountains in GMark are related to the disciples?)

What if Luke removing the mountain has more to do with its possible association with the Temple Mount? I think we have seen this kind of removal of the temple from any sign of God's disapproval before in Luke. In Mark 13.2, 14 and Matthew 24.2, 15, the temple is not only destroyed but also desecrated. But in Luke 21.6, 20 the temple is destroyed, and Jerusalem surrounded by armies, but the "abomination of desolation" is not mentioned. Perhaps similarly, in Mark, the intercalation of the cleansing of the temple in between the two parts of the cursing of the fig tree imply, to my mind, that the temple itself (and not just certain activities within it) is in some way, for Mark, the target of Jesus' wrath. But Luke removes the cursing of the fig tree from around the temple incident, which leaves only this in 19.45-46: "Jesus entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling, saying to them, 'It is written, "And My house shall be a house of prayer," but you have made it a robbers’ den.'" One would never guess that the temple itself had outlived its usefulness. It is merely the trade that goes on within it that offends the son of God.

Likewise, I think that the saying about casting the mountain (actually, "this mountain", τῶ ὄρει τούτῳ) into the sea in Mark 11.23 implies, at least in its context, the Temple Mount. Maybe that is why Luke turns the mountain into a sycamine tree in 17.6: he is protecting the temple from slander again. And maybe that is why he turned the cursing of the fig tree into a (comparatively) harmless parable and moved it to another context: he has no problem with armies surrounding Jerusalem in 21.20; and he has no problem with Galileans getting their blood shed over their sacrifices in 13.1-3, or with towers falling on people in 13.4-5 (neither of which was in Marcion, we are told), but he does like to keep the temple out of the mess; so, by putting the parable of the fig tree in this latter context, after the sayings about the Galileans and the tower of Siloam, the withering tree now represents the people, not the temple.

What do you think? Is there anything to this?

Ben.

[MrMacSon]

What if Luke removing the mountain has more to do with its possible association with the Temple Mount? ...

Likewise, I think that the saying about casting the mountain (actually, "this mountain", τῶ ὄρει τούτῳ) into the sea in Mark 11.23 implies, at least in its context, the Temple Mount ...

What do you think? Is there anything to this?

Ben.

I was wondering if there were ties to the hill or mountain on which Nazareth now sits, albeit not on the very top, and ties to watchmen,watching, etc.

[Ben C. Smith]

I was wondering if there were ties to the hill or mountain on which Nazareth now sits, albeit not on the very top, and ties to watchmen,watching, etc.

Well, the reason I think of the Temple Mount, and not any mountains further from Jerusalem, is because the fig tree incident (which includes the saying about "this mountain") envelops the cleansing of the temple. Nazareth is far behind now in the narrative, way up in Galilee.

[andrewcriddle]

And for my friends who have never managed to expand their minds through chemistry - don't forget that Clement knows of a gospel that identifies Matthew in place of Zacchaeus. https://books.google.com/books?id=ruUZA ... nt&f=false I have always thought this is key to understanding where the gospel of 'Matthew' originated. But who knows. But this nonsense about limiting discussion to three late gospels is as ever annoying - like watching children themselves by little hammers.

Probably Matthias not Matthew
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oIf ... ew&f=false

Andrew Criddle

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

.
Once our own MrMacSon wrote an post about an article by Fernando Bermejo-Rubio 'Why is John the Baptist Used as a Foil for Jesus?’. Bermejo-Rubio argued:

Does anyone have knowledge of this article? or commentary about it? -

Fernando Bermejo-Rubio (2013) 'Why is John the Baptist Used as a Foil for Jesus? Leaps of Faith and Oblique Anti-Judaism in Contemporary Scholarship' Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus Vol. 11, Issue 2; pp. 170–196.

Abstract -

Despite the existence of some differences between John the Baptist and Jesus the Galilean, there is no compelling evidence allowing us to infer that they were significantly contrasting characters, even less to postulate any significant opposition between them: the available sources are witnesses to the striking similarities in their messages, their radical personalities, their destinies, and their reception by their contemporaries. The widespread scholarly discourse of a considerable discontinuity between these two preachers of Second Temple Judaism is accordingly unwarranted and unreliable. What is even worse, there are reasons to suspect that the use of John the Baptist as a foil for Jesus might be the last Christian avatar of the centuries-long tendency consisting of contrasting Jesus to Judaism.

http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com ... 7-01102001

Mark pointed out clear differences between John and Jesus, but also striking similarities in the stories of their deaths. A few points

theme: a righteous one is killed by unrighteous persons
th

the judge know that he is a righteous one	6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man	15:10, 14 For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priests had delivered him up ... And Pilate said to them, “Why? What evil has he done?”
but the judge is bound by the will of other people	Herod, the dancing daughter, because of Herod’s oath	Pilate, the people, because of the Paschal Pardon
behind the “other people” are instigators	Herodias	the chief priests
the executioner is a Roman or has something to do with them	the “Latin” speculator	the centurion and the Roman soldiers
it has to do with a time of “good opportunity”	6:21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday ...	14:10 And he sought an opportunity to betray him ...
e burial place is a memorial tomb	6:29 When his disciples heard of it, they ... laid it in a tomb.	15:46 And Joseph ... laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock.

It seems to me that Luke took over Mark’s theme of parallelisation of John and Jesus in his birth stories.

- two supernatural births
- the birth stories are introduced with historical dates (1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea; 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus)
- the births are announced by the angel Gabriel (1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son; 1:30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son)
- there are themes of faith and joy in both stories (1:20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words; 1:45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.)
- both stories end in childhood (1:80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.)