How Did Paul Know Jesus Was Resurrected?

[Secret Alias]

A slight clarification on the Greek:

I know a man in Christ, caught up into the third heaven, and thence into Paradise, when he heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak (οἶδα λέγων ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ ἁρπαγέντα ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ, κἀκεῖθεν εἰς τὸν παράδεισον, ὃς ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα, ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι)

The implication seems to be that Paul heard the 'unspeakable words' when he was in Paradise not the third heaven.

[andrewcriddle]

The Marcionites understood another perfect world existed 'above the third heaven':

After all, or, if you like, before all, since you have said that he has a creation of his own, and his own world, and his own sky; we shall see,185 indeed, about that third heaven, when we come to discuss even your own apostle [Tertullian Adv Marc 1.15.1]

Clement knows a different text of 2 Corinthians a text shared by the heretics:

To these statements the apostle will testify: "I know a man in Christ, caught up into the third heaven, and thence into Paradise, who heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak (οἶδα λέγων ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ ἁρπαγέντα ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ, κἀκεῖθεν εἰς τὸν παράδεισον, ὃς ἤκουσεν ἄρρηταῥήματα, ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι)," -- intimating thus the impossibility of expressing God, and indicating that what is divine is unutterable by human power; if, indeed, he begins to speak above the third heaven, as it is lawful to initiate the elect souls in the mysteries there. For I know what is in Plato (for the examples from the barbarian philosophy, which are many, are suggested now by the composition which, in accordance with promises previously given, waits the suitable time). For doubting, in Timaoeus, whether we ought to regard several worlds as to be understood by many heavens, or this one, he makes no distinction in the names, calling the world and heaven by the same name. But the words of the statement are as follows: "Whether, then, have we rightly spoken of one heaven, or of many and infinite? It were more correct to say one, if indeed it was created according to the model." Further, in the Epistle of the Romans to the Corinthians it is written, "An ocean illimitable by men and the worlds after it." Consequently, therefore, the noble apostle exclaims, "Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God!"

Clement's text of 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 2

οἶδα λέγων ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ ἁρπαγέντα ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ, κἀκεῖθεν εἰς τὸν παράδεισον, ὃς ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα, ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι

Look at all the additions by a later hand, additions I long noted even without Clement's testimony:

οἶδα ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων,— εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα, εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν,— ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ. καὶ οἶδα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἄνθρωπον— εἴτε ἐν σώματι εἴτε χωρὶς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν,— 4 ὅτι ἡρπάγη εἰς τὸν Παράδεισον καὶ ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι

Clement's text of 2 Corinthians was used by the Naasenes.

I don't think Clement has a different text of 2 Corinthians 12:1-2 He is probably merging together verse 2 and verse 4

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.…

Andrew Criddle

[Secret Alias]

But the stuff in the middle is so obviously there as secondary editorial manipulation. How don't you see that:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man-- whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

You think that garbage in red is original? It's obviously there to avoid heretical arguments about the soul being separate from the body. If you can't see that Andrew ...

You really think the original author wrote that nonsense?

[Secret Alias]

Some more clues this time from Origen who intimates Paul wrote a secret gospel from his experience:

For we must not, like some, admit that if the world cannot contain the books that should be written, it is because of the multitude of the writings, but rather that it is on account of the greatness of the incidents; their greatness is not only indescribable, but they cannot be proclaimed by fleshly tongue, nor be made known in the language and speech of men. This is why Paul, when he is about to learn things more Divine, leaves our world of earth and is rapt into the third heaven, that he may be able to hear the unutterable words thence proceeding. For we are told of what was said there and considered to be the Word of God, the Word made flesh, and who, as regards being God with God, emptied Himself. Wherefore we see the Word of God on earth, for that He became man, in human guise; for even in the Scriptures the Word became flesh that He might tabernacle among us. But if we incline on thebosom of the Word made flesh 298 and are able to follow Him when He ascends the lofty mountain, we shall say, "We saw his glory." Some perhaps who are not like those who lie upon His bosom and follow Him to the lofty mountain may say, "We saw his glory," but they will not add "Glory as of an only-begotten from a Father, full of grace and truth": for this language becomes John and such as are like him. And, according to a loftier interpretation, they who are able to walk in the footsteps of Jesus as He ascends, and is transfigured out of sight of earth, shall behold His transfiguration in every scripture; for instance, when Jesus shows Himself to the many, this is the function of the simpler diction; but when He ascends a lofty mountain and is transfigured, showing Himself to very few of the disciples, and to those who have become able to follow Him to the heights above, this is the work of the highest, sublimest sense, containing oracles of the wisdom hidden in a mystery, which wisdom "God foreordained before the worlds unto the glory of his righteous ones."

Is Origen intimating knowledge of Jesus 'emptying himself' in Paul in heaven? The Acts of Archelaus make a big deal not only of Paul being the Paraclete but the 'vessel' of God.

[Secret Alias]

Origen clearly understood that Paul was changed into God by seeing Jesus in heaven and that this ascent was imitated by all Christians including himself https://books.google.com/books?id=N34JX ... en&f=false

[Secret Alias]

It would seem then that in light of the empty tomb the most likely candidate for 'the resurrected Jesus' in the heretical tradition related to Marcionism (which includes the Alexandrian tradition) was that of Paul being the resurrected Jesus after being snatched up to heaven.

[Secret Alias]

And it would seem the original text of 2 Corinthians 12 never had that nonsense about 'εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα, εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν,— ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον.' The whole reason it was put there was to cast doubt on the original doctrine of spiritual ascent. Yes it may appear in one of Eusebius's standardized 'corrections' of Origen's texts. But it was not there originally:

Origen cites numerous examples of this phenomenon (wholly spiritual ascent), including 2 Cor 12:1-4. Origen notes Paul's confusion regarding the role of the body, but he simply states that this issue cannot be dealt with at the moment. He drops the question and never returns to it.

[outhouse]

Origen clearly understood that Paul was changed into God by seeing Jesus in heaven and that this ascent was imitated by all Christians including himself https://books.google.com/books?id=N34JX ... en&f=false

I think your way off base "to be nice".


You cannot play out of context and expect anyone to take you serious here.

Third Heaven is described as a location "between corruptibility and incorruptibility"

Third heaven has such residents as Israelites of the exodus, Abraham, david, aaron, moses, Isaac.

But his context is a vision, a dream.

[Secret Alias]

So instead of me putting forward ideas from antiquity (and my own attempts to make sense of them) let's listen to you. The ascent to the third heaven was just Paul historically ascending to a 'third heaven'? He was a wild and crazy guy and his experience had no importance on Christianity and doesn't deserve to be thought about a great deal. Right?

[outhouse]

So instead of me putting forward ideas from antiquity (and my own attempts to make sense of them) let's listen to you. The ascent to the third heaven was just Paul historically ascending to a 'third heaven'? He was a wild and crazy guy and his experience had no importance on Christianity and doesn't deserve to be thought about a great deal. Right?

No lets not listen to me, lets just not jump to conclusions so far out of the box its obviously not gaining traction.


Pauls community writing in rhetorical prose about a vision or dream state ascent, which also eludes 4 times to the apocalypse of Moses, could also very well be addressing his conflicts with superapostles, by building his authority.

Paul wanted one thing more then anything, and that was to be viewed as a real apostle, and he went to great lengths to build his case why he should be trusted.