Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

What was the OP again?

I actually think we have most of the pieces here to construct an almost complete clade diagram of the evolution of the xianities.

Referring to an earlier point SA made, I would argue that Paul saw and spoke with Jesus Christ in paradise, some mix of the perfect man and a god.

I hope it is agreed that religions are attempts via ritual, often involving journeys to the heavens (or on water .....) to meet with the gods.

(Oh no, any description of a journey, by land, sea, (baptism, ascension, rolling grave stones) are probably theological .....)

All the ingredients were there in the various rituals and beliefs. Someone, possibly Paul, possibly something loads of people did and repeated it in rituals, experienced a journey to paradise where they met the perfect man and the gods. They synthesised existing ideas in a slightly different way, using pre existing rituals.

The success of xianity is precisely what it says it is - come to church, go through a communal heavenly ascent ritual, meet with the gods, conquer death. See the evidence of this because by doing all of this you have caused the sun to rise.

All xians know Christ is risen! I did!

And maybe references to the past (journeys in time?) are also theological? Fourteen years?

A major problem is that because we have lived with a modern, science oriented world for five hundred years, we cannot "really" understand the "reality" of these oriental cargo cults.

A cargo cult is a Melanesian millenarian movement encompassing a diverse range of practices and occurring in the wake of contact with the commercial networks of colonizing societies. The name derives from the belief that various ritualistic acts will lead to a bestowing of material wealth ("cargo").[1][2]

Cargo cults often develop during a combination of crises. Under conditions of social stress, such a movement may form under the leadership of a charismatic figure. This leader may have a "vision" (or "myth-dream") of the future, often linked to an ancestral efficacy ("mana") thought to be recoverable by a return to traditional morality.[1][3] This leader may characterize the present state as a dismantling of the old social order, meaning that social hierarchy and ego boundaries have been broken down.[4]

There is no reality except in action. Man is nothing else than his plan; he exists only to the extent that he fulfills himself; he is therefore nothing else than the ensemble of his acts, nothing else than his life.”

Sartre


Paul wrote he went to a third heaven, and elsewhere about lots of witnesses to Christ's death.


Several years ago I went to Florence, Pisa and Assisi, and became aware of the classic three part structure of churches - baptistry, main church and campagnile.

The wording of the creeds and the eucharist are also of note. They are in the present tense. A huge proportion of christians believe the body and blood of christ is present during the eucharist. Your sins are forgiven.

What if it is all a more complicated cargo cult, to bring the gods to us this time with a good man doing a bit of the journey, with special priests, special liturgies, creeds and special technologies in buildings?

The rituals, the theatrics, the facing east, the eating and drinking together, the magickal words are all intended to bring god to us and to defeat death.

Everything else, the gospels, Jesus of Nazareth, are all later just so stories.

Xianity is the rituals, especially the eucharist.

They believed they had conquered death by having communal altered states of consciousness, heavenly ascent rituals at dawn when they truly met the risen christ.

Clive wrote:

There is no reality except in action. Man is nothing else than his plan; he exists only to the extent that he fulfills himself; he is therefore nothing else than the ensemble of his acts, nothing else than his life.”

Satre

If you plaster that quote all over the forum, get at least the name right. It's Sartre.

Doh!