GakuseiDon on the Ascension of Isaiah

[Giuseppe]

This is 'On the Historicity of Jesus' by Richard Carrier Reviewed by GakuseiDon. I am interested in this thread only to know better his point about the Ascension of Isaiah.

I am a bit perplexed when I read:

Carrier states that the phrases 'they will think that he is flesh and a man' (9.13) and he shall 'descend in your form' (8.26) are both missing from the Latin version, which are "the only statements outside the pocket gospel that refer to Jesus becoming like a man." (page 42). In this, Carrier is wrong. "In your form" appears in 9.13.

If I understand well, if we assume that ''in your form'' is found in the original text, then the problem raised by gDon would be the following:

1) Jesus has to be in the form of the demons when he will be killed (according to the divine plane)
2) but he is ''in the form'' of Isaiah.
3) Isaiah is a man.
4) therefore Jesus is ''in the form'' of a man.
5) hence: Jesus is not in the form of the demons.
6) therefore: Jesus is not in the heavenly realm of the demons, but in this world, when he is killed.

Mmm... I think that this criticism suffers of the same fallacy of the criticism confuted by Carrier in his reply to James McGrath.

Basically, gDon assumes a strong rigid distinction between being ''in the form'' of a man and being ''in the form'' of demons; the two forms are mutually exclusive, for him. Carrier is not so rigid in that distinction, since he assumes that ''in the form'' of a man means to have a humanoid body, still something not fully human and earthly. But the demonic angels have, too, a humanoid body or appearance, since all the angels are conceived man-like.

GDon seems to exclude a priori the possibility that Jesus has to receive a umanoid body (= not fully human) to be killed by the demons. Demons who have equally an umanoid form, being angels.

This moves me to raise a curious question. If the demons are very bad to see (they are monstrous, right?) then Jesus couldn't assume their form even in their monstrosity, because otherwise he would show himself as a demon (therefore being respected - i.e., not killed - by the demons to the extent that he was a demon, too). I conclude that, for the author of Asc. of Isaiah, an umanoid body (''in your form'') was necessary for Jesus to be recognized by demons as a vulnerable entity, a sacrificial victim, an easy prey.

In other terms, contra gDon, being ''in Isaiah's form'' does not require ipso facto a correspondent realm of only men (our Earth) but still requires a realm populated only by demons (ABOVE the earth) because otherwise the demons do not kill their own fellow (or they not would consider Jesus an easy target of their abuse).

[GakuseiDon]

This is 'On the Historicity of Jesus' by Richard Carrier Reviewed by GakuseiDon. I am interested in this thread only to know better his point about the Ascension of Isaiah.

I am a bit perplexed when I read:

Carrier states that the phrases 'they will think that he is flesh and a man' (9.13) and he shall 'descend in your form' (8.26) are both missing from the Latin version, which are "the only statements outside the pocket gospel that refer to Jesus becoming like a man." (page 42). In this, Carrier is wrong. "In your form" appears in 9.13.

Can you explain why you are perplexed? "In your form" does appear in 9.13 in the Latin version, so when Carrier suggests it does not, then he is incorrect. What is perplexing about this?

If I understand well, if we assume that ''in your form'' is found in the original text, then the problem raised by gDon would be the following:

1) Jesus has to be in the form of the demons when he will be killed (according to the divine plane)
2) but he is ''in the form'' of Isaiah.
3) Isaiah is a man.
4) therefore Jesus is ''in the form'' of a man.
5) hence: Jesus is not in the form of the demons.
6) therefore: Jesus is not in the heavenly realm of the demons, but in this world, when he is killed.

Not quite. What you miss out on is the following:

A) AoI says that in the firmament, the Beloved takes on the form of the creatures in the firmament (AoI 10:29)
B) AoI says that when the Beloved descends below the firmanent into the air, the Beloved takes on the form of the creatures of the air (AoI 10:30)

At this point, the Beloved has gone below the firmament and still hasn't taken on the form of a man. So the question becomes: where does the Beloved take on the form of a man? Note that the Latin version has the Beloved 'dwelling among men', so this can only be on earth. That's why even Doherty had to admit that it is "probably" a reference to earth.

I do explain this in my review of OHJ. You can see the Ethiopian version of AoI on the EarlyChristianWritings website here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

Can you confirm that my analysis about the form of the Beloved in the firmament and the air are correct, please? And if my analysis is correct, where does this suggest that the Beloved took on the form of a man?

[Giuseppe]

I am assuming, for sake of discussion, that Dr. Carrier is wrong when he says that 'in your form' is missing in the original text, therefore I assume in this thread that 'in your form' is found there.

What is perplexing about this?

I am perplexed because you seem to build your entire case on the mere presence of ''in your form'' in the original text (a fact that I assume, too).

I report here your table from here :

Text	Descent	Form of the Beloved
10:26	Second Heaven	Second Heaven angel
10:27	First Heaven	First Heaven angel
10:29	Firmament	Form of a firmament creature
10:30	Air	Angel of the air
8:10, 8:26, 9:13	???	Form of a man

What I am saying is that the (assumed) presence of 8:10, 8:26, 9:13 (the need of a form of a man for Jesus) doesn't require by need a correspondent earthly level (our planet) because to have an humanoid body is condicio sine qua non to be Jesus killed by demons (because otherwise he is recognized as an 'angel of the air' and is not killed as their prey).

[MrMacSon]

... I am interested in this thread only to know better his point about the Ascension of Isaiah.
I am a bit perplexed when I read:

Carrier states that the phrases 'they will think that he is flesh and a man' (9.13) and he shall 'descend in your form' (8.26) are both missing from the Latin version, which are "the only statements outside the pocket gospel that refer to Jesus becoming like a man." (page 42). In this, Carrier is wrong. "In your form" appears in 9.13.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseid ... eview.html

This, to me, raises these questions to clarify -

1. In what context does "In your form" appear in 9.13 ??
   
   1. Does it appear in conjunction with 'they will think that he is flesh and a man' ??
   2. Does "In your form" appear in 9.13 when he shall 'descend in your form' is missing or present in 8.26 ??
2. In what context do the S/L versions "appear to contain 'a reference to 'human form' and probably a reference to earth'." ??

[GakuseiDon]

I am perplexed because you seem to build your entire case on the mere presence of ''in your form'' in the original text (a fact that I assume, too).

I report here your table from here :

Text	Descent	Form of the Beloved
10:26	Second Heaven	Second Heaven angel
10:27	First Heaven	First Heaven angel
10:29	Firmament	Form of a firmament creature
10:30	Air	Angel of the air
8:10, 8:26, 9:13	???	Form of a man

What I am saying is that the (assumed) presence of 8:10, 8:26, 9:13 (the need of a form of a man for Jesus) doesn't require by need a correspondent earthly level (our planet) because to have an humanoid body is condicio sine qua non to be Jesus killed by demons (because otherwise he is recognized as an 'angel of the air' and is not killed as their prey).

If the text said "the Beloved descends into the firmament, takes on the form of a man, and is killed there", then you'd be right. But that isn't what the text says.

In the S/L version, 9.13 states:

• And the angel said to me: ... he will be in your likeness [in specie vestra], and the prince of that world will extend his hand against the son of God and will kill him, and hang him on a tree, and he will kill him not knowing who he is.

So the Beloved is only killed when he takes on human form. I think we can all agree there. The question is: where does this happen?

Now check the chart again. When the Beloved descends into the firmament, he has the form of firmament creatures and is not killed. He then descends down into the air, and he has the form of the creatures of the air and is not killed there, according to the text. Again, I think we can agree there.

After that, the S/L versions say in 11.2:

• And I saw one like unto a son of man, and he was dwelling with men in the world [in mundo], and they did not know him.

That matches up with 9.13: the Beloved is dwelling with men (presumably on earth), no-one knows who he is, and this is where he is killed.

You might argue that while in the air, the Beloved takes on the form of a man, and then he gets killed there. Then he goes down to earth and dwells with men, with people not knowing who he is. But it seems an unnecessary complication, and one not backed up by anything. I don't think there is any other more reasonable interpretation than that in the S/L versions (which are missing parts) the Beloved is killed on earth.

By the way, the AoI, with the Ethiopic, Slavonic and Latin2 versions are available in PDF form from here:
https://ia800208.us.archive.org/24/item ... 590529.pdf

Only the Ethiopic is in English translation, however.

[Giuseppe]

I see that dr. Carrier agrees with me:

In line with this, two other key phrases also appear to have been i nterpolated:
'they will think that he is flesh and a man' (9. 1 3) and he shall 'descend
in your form' (8.26) are both missing from the Latin version. Although the
Latin text is frequently abbreviated, that is unlikely to explain the coincidental
omission of these specific phrases, the only statements outside the
pocket gospel that refer to Jesus becoming like a man. Nevertheless, those
statements would still be compatible with a celestial event (as human sorcerers
could fly into the air and be met with there, and earliest Christian
belief certainly held that Jesus had assumed the form of a man), so we
needn't rule them out.

(p. 42, my bold)

If the text said "the Beloved descends into the firmament, takes on the form of a man, and is killed there", then you'd be right. But that isn't what the text says.

I have no need of a so explicit statement about the location, because it's already assumed that the assumption of a humanoid body is necessary for the death of the Beloved by the demons of the air.

My point is that there is a precise difference between the following 3 options:
1) If the Beloved assumes the humanoid form among the men in this world, there is no way to kill him by demons.
2) If the Beloved assumes the demonic form among the demons in their world, there is no way to kill him by demons.
3) If the Beloved assumes the humanoid form among the demons in their world, then there is a way to kill him by demons.

That matches up with 9.13: the Beloved is dwelling with men (presumably on earth), no-one knows who he is, and this is where he is killed.

You might argue that while in the air, the Beloved takes on the form of a man, and then he gets killed there. Then he goes down to earth and dwells with men, with people not knowing who he is.
But it seems an unnecessary complication, and one not backed up by anything.

Clearly here you want to use the Latin version as a pattern matching with the version above: where the former has ''in your form'', the latter has the more historicist construct ''dwelling with men'', but it is clear that the pattern matching fails, since the former has the important passage:

And the angel said to me: ... he will be in your likeness [in specie vestra], and the prince of that world will extend his hand against the son of God and will kill him, and hang him on a tree, and he will kill him not knowing who he is.

...while in the Latin version there is no explicit death by entities who don't know the Beloved.

We can agree with the following words of Dr. Carrier (about the Latin version):

Notably missing is what
happened in between. Where is his execution, for example? Something has
been removed. Not only are we missing the original story (of Satan and his
angels killing him, as we're told to expect in 9.14), but we also expect to
hear an account of 'God's resounding voice' across the heavens, since Isaiah
had heard he would see that, too (10.12), likewise an account of 'many
of the righteous' ascending with Jesus (9. 17; or in the Latin, being sent by
Jesus) and Jesus hanging around for over a year (9.16, although this detail
seems to have been abbreviated out of the Latin). Notably, none of these
things are in the pocket gospel that was later inserted either. So that clearly
was not what was removed from the original. 7 What had to have been in
the original is the original gospel foretold in chaps. 9 and 1O. But that is
not what is in any manuscript of the Ascension of Isaiah in chaps. IO and
I I now. Whatever was originally in the text at this point is lost to history
(though possib'y not entirely: see Chapter 8, §6).

(p. 43-44)

Therefore I think that the Latin version has no utility to know where is the implicit location.

I see your table:

Text	Descent	Form of the Beloved
10:26 And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form.	Second Heaven	Second Heaven angel
10:27 And again I saw when He descended into the first heaven, and there also He gave the password to those who kept the gate, and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels who were on the left of that throne, and they neither praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form.	First Heaven	First Heaven angel
10:29 And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles.	Firmament	Form of a firmament creature
10:30 And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.	Air	Angel of the air
8:10 Undergoing (successive) transformation until He resembles your form and likeness. , 8:26 Not (yet) hath been manifested he shall be in the corruptible world] and the garments, and the thrones, and the crowns which are laid up for the righteous, for those who trust in that Lord who will descend in your form. For the light which is there is great and wonderful. , 9:13 Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.	???	Form of a man

I would replace your table with the following table:


Third Heaven angel

Text	Descent	Form of the Beloved
10:16 These commands I heard the Great Glory giving to my Lord. 10:17 And so I saw my Lord go forth from the seventh heaven into the sixth heaven.	Seventh Heaven	in his glory
10:19 And I saw, and when the angels saw Him, thereupon those in the sixth heaven praised and lauded Him; for He had not been transformed after the shape of the angels there, and they praised Him and I also praised with them.	Sixth Heaven	in his glory
10:20 And I saw when He descended into the fifth heaven, that in the fifth heaven He made Himself like unto the form of the angels there, and they did not praise Him (nor worship Him); for His form was like unto theirs.	Fifth Heaven	Fifth Heaven angel
10:21 And then He descended into the forth heaven, and made Himself like unto the form of the angels there.	Forth Heaven	Forth Heaven Angel
10:23 And again I saw when He descended into the third heaven, and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the third heaven.	Third Heaven
10:26 And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form.	Second Heaven	Second Heaven angel
10:27 And again I saw when He descended into the first heaven, and there also He gave the password to those who kept the gate, and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels who were on the left of that throne, and they neither praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form.	First Heaven	First Heaven angel
10:29 And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles.	Firmament	Form of a firmament creature
10:30 And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.	Air	Angel of the air
8:10 Undergoing (successive) transformation until He resembles your form and likeness. , 8:26 Not (yet) hath been manifested he shall be in the corruptible world and the garments, and the thrones, and the crowns which are laid up for the righteous, for those who trust in that Lord who will descend in your form. 9:13 Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man. 9:14 And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.	Air	Form of a man
10:10 And thou wilt be careful to become like the form of the angels of the firmament [and the angels also who are in Sheol].	Sheol	Sheol angel
11:23 And I saw Him, and He was in the firmament, but He had not changed Himself into their form, and all the angels of the firmament and the Satans saw Him and they worshipped.	Firmament	in his glory

Which table fits better the evidence?

I think in OHJ there is already the answer, precisely when Dr. Carrier writes:

In 10.30 it's implied Jesus
descends to a lower part of the firmament (where he finds he needs no
password to get in), but he is still then among 'the angels of the air'. He
goes no further. Back in 10.8 it was said he shall descend 'even to the angel
in the realm of the dead' (though specifically not to Hell), but as we'll see
in Chapter 5 (e.g. in Plutarch's account in On the Face That Appears in the
Orb of the Moon), many theologians of this period regarded the 'realm of
the dead' to be up in the sky, not in an underworld (see Chapter 5: Element
37), and there is no indication here that anything else was meant.

(pag. 41-42)

Carrier has two ways to confute your criticism:

1) an ''Argument from Silence'' when he writes: ''He goes no further.''

2) an explanation of why that Argument of Silence is strong: if the Earth was the real location of the death of the Beloved, then it had to be mentioned, because even the Sheol is mentioned!

Back in 10.8 it was said he shall descend 'even to the angel
in the realm of the dead' ... many theologians of this period regarded the 'realm of
the dead' to be up in the sky, not in an underworld

If even the Sheol is on the same trajectory of the path of the Beloved, and not after the Earth, then the author of Asc. of Isa. had to mention the Earth, IF there the Beloved was crucified.

[Ben C. Smith]

I would replace your table with the following table:

Text	Descent	Form of the Beloved
10:29 And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles.	Firmament	Form of a firmament creature
10:30 And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.	Air	Angel of the air
8:10 Undergoing (successive) transformation until He resembles your form and likeness. , 8:26 Not (yet) hath been manifested he shall be in the corruptible world and the garments, and the thrones, and the crowns which are laid up for the righteous, for those who trust in that Lord who will descend in your form. 9:13 Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man. 9:14 And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.	Air	Form of a man

Which table fits better the evidence?

I have retained the three rows which I suspect will be impossible for any to accept who are not fairly desperate to find an aerial crucifixion in this text. The pattern is set up and fulfilled to near completion: one change per region; and now, suddenly, for no apparent reason, Jesus is supposed to change twice in the air (even though the text does not say that he does)? No way.

It would be easier to argue for a crucifixion in Sheol in this text than to argue for a crucifixion in the air.

[Giuseppe]

But for 'air' Carrier means ''the lower part of the firmament''. Note that Satan, who is the king of the firmament (and hence of the air, too, see 7:9 ''Sammael'') would be the expected killer of the Beloved in the lower part of the firmament (=air).

[Ben C. Smith]

But for 'air' Carrier means ''the lower part of the firmament''. Note that Satan, who is the king of the firmament (and hence of the air, too, see 7:9 ''Sammael'') would be the expected killer of the Beloved in the lower part of the firmament (=air).

That does not relieve the problem of two changes in the air in any way.

[Giuseppe]

Note that there is an indication that the Firmament is divided in two parts: the left and the right of the throne of Satan:

10:29 And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left

A password is necessary to those ''on the left'' of the throne of Satan. But a password is not more necessary (it's implicit) to those on the right, i.e., the lower part of the firmament, i.e. the ''air'', because there is only disorder there.