Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

I've always had a problem with Paul claiming to have only 'seen' Jesus by revelation after the ascension. The first problem is that liars generally only refrain from lying when some solid piece of evidence prevents them from making stuff up. Most people are aware of this so the fact that Paul is made to 'confess' that he never saw Jesus - or at least not say he saw Jesus - is taken to be a powerful piece of evidence that a tradition of the apostles existed before he made his visionary claims.

But I am not sure that the existing canon of Pauline writings approximates what the Marcionite canon said Paul said. More importantly, as we have seen in other threads Eznik says that Jesus carried away Paul (cf 1 Cor 12:3) and sets the carrying away close to the Passion. Clement of Alexandria seems to do the same thing with respect to the calling of Paul. And then there is the question raised by Adamantius (or the judge I forget which) in De Recta in Deum Fide which asks the Marcionite whether Paul was witness at the Passion narrative (Megethius does not answer the question). And finally the statement in Eznik again says:
and if, as they say, for this Law of the Just One Jesus was solicited judge and mediator since he was found worthy of death many times over by those laws because prior to his crucifixion he had carried many off. And not only himself but he also chose many others from among those same ones and he sent them off to teach and draw unto him. And not only that much but also he clothed their might to trample underfoot the army of their Lord and threw sword and division into his house and kindled a fire in his creatures to the point of curtailing and obstructing this Law of his from the days of John the Baptist. And to announce his own kingdom many preachers were unleashed to preach and many reapers to reap what he himself had not sown.

And before anyone had sinned against him or put him on the cross or shed his blood he took his house as booty and he displaced his kingship and he was remaining silent and he was not sinning. And how will they say that by his crucifixion he purchased mankind? Because look here! before he had yet ascended the cross that assemblage of many he had snatched to himself. (p. 196)
This is a very strange passage not just because 'he' is used throughout the passage with Jesus and 'the Jewish god' (making the identification of 'he' quite difficult at times to figure out) but more so with respect to the status of 'those led away.'

Are the apostles included among 'those led away' or purchased from the Jewish god? I don't think so. He specifically means that those 'cured' in the gospel narratives. So the Marcionites introduce a new scenario were a series of individuals - not the Twelve - are drawn away from Judaism, 'purchased' out of slavery if you will, who teach and in turn draw others away from the Law. All of those individuals are deemed worthy of death according to the Law.

How is Paul not included as ranking among this list of 'carried off' individuals in the gospel narrative (i.e. before the Passion narrative) other than the fact that our tradition forbids that possibility? But it also goes out of its way to make the most important aspect of the Marcionite Paul impossible for us - viz. Paul as original evangelist.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

A new book (I haven't read) by Porter about the possibility - https://books.google.com/books?id=DdTrC ... us&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

Remember when I speculated that Paul might have been the naked man in Secret Mark because of the double entendre in Syriac with 'apostle'? Porter identifies the same individual as possibly being Paul also:
There are other possible episodes in the Gospels where Paul was perhaps involved in discussion with Jesus, places that others have suggested. A. M. Pope and T. A. Moxon, independently of each other, have discussed the possibility of the episode where “the rich young ruler” (Matt 19:16–22// Mark 10:17–22//Luke 18:18–23) comes to Jesus.18 Moxon notes the fact that the young man/ruler (he is a young man in Matthew, a ruler in Luke, and simply a person in Mark, but rich in all) was a Pharisee (none of the Gospels actually says this), was wealthy (Luke says he was very rich), and was observant of the law (determined from the context). The word for “young man” used by Matthew (νεανίσκος) is cognate to the word used of Saul when he stood by at the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:58). Moxon also notes that, in Mark's account, the man runs up and falls before Jesus, an impetuous act reminiscent to him of Paul.19 Moxon states further that Jesus invites this person to become a disciple by asking him to follow him (as all three Gospels record), which invitation – at least at this time – he rejects because he is unwilling to sell all he has and give it to the poor. The language concerning following Jesus uses wording similar to that used elsewhere when Peter, Andrew, and Matthew/Levi (Matt 4:19, 9:9; Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) follow Jesus. elsewhere when Peter, Andrew, and Matthew/Levi (Matt 4:19, 9:9; Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) follow Jesus. Moxon is acutely aware of the fact that none of the Gospels identifies the young man/ruler here as Paul – just as he is not identified in the passage that I related earlier concerning the Pharisaical scribe or lawyer – but he notes that there are many people and events that occur within the Gospels where the people are not identified.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Clive
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Clive »

Jesus carried away Paul (cf 1 Cor 12:3) and sets the carrying away close to the Passion.
Might the tale of Paul seeing Jesus on the road to "Damascus" be a retelling of Jesus and Paul meeting in the third heaven/paradise and being blinded a logical result ofgetting too close to gods?

More evidence that he did have a vision? (And the altered state of consciousness happened in a passion ritual - the eucharist?)
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Clive
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Clive »

Might Acts be earlier than the gospels?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

Nah. Spurious codex.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Stuart »

fundamental problem with your proposition. Marcionites said Jesus had no flesh.

A later Appellean offshoot said he borrowed elements as he moved down through the heavens to earth to form a body.. (Obviously a compromise theology)

The nature of the revelation is not disclosed in the Marcionite. The Catholic presentation in Acts, as they attempt to incorporate the heretics Apostle, is a blinding vision. There are numerous post-Marcionite references to seeing Christ (Catholic addition to 1 Corinthians 9:1 which references Acts 9:3-17, 1 Peter 1:8, expanded ending Mark 16:14, Luke 2:26). The Gospel of John puts forward the heretical view in the early post-Marcion era to counter the Catholic, on the issue of authority (John 3:11, 6:36, 14:9, 15:24, and especially 20:29). Sight is definitely referenced - ignoring the sophistry of certain Church Fathers.

I am not 100% convinced that a vision is really claimed. I tend to subscribe to the notion that the collector of the apostle "invented" Paul as a vehicle to bind the tracts together and sew in his own myths. Whether a "real" legendary figure (we are talking literature after all) was the model we'll never know. But it's not unlikely that Paul became the collector/author's alter ego, the James Bond to Ian Flemming. As for the revelation spoken of, that revealed Christ inside Paul, the alter ego, the concept of vision merely means something seen. My WAG (and it's a WAG I care not to defend too hard ... like you I attach the word speculation to it) is that it's likely an astrological observation. Astrology is said to have been an occupation of many Marcionites, and it was shunned by the Orthodox, even though its almost impossible not to see the astrological influence on the book of revelation.

The nature of the vision is not given in the heretical side. Not even in the literature, it being so stylized. But in the Catholic its a blinding vision of Christ. And that seems to have been accepted by the heretical camp by the later part of the 2nd century. It became formula for literature, like coffins for vampires.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

I meant Paul met Jesus in his (own = Paul's) flesh. But appreciate the civil discussion. Not that I will be able to keep that up for long. But it is duly noted.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

Let's start with this. You acknowledge that the Pauline relationship with Jesus isn't very well defined in what we know about the Marcionite tradition. I was just going through Tertullian to see if there was a definitive statement about Paul not seeing the Lord (I think it is in Book 5 at the beginning but I am only at 3 so far).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Did the Marcionites Claim Paul Met Jesus in the Flesh?

Post by Secret Alias »

Going through the text it is difficult to understand why Paul would not be classified as an 'apostolic' if meeting the Lord in the flesh was the qualification for being an apostle.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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