Jesus and Christ

[Clive]

ted space available to me in this journal does not permit an accurate account of all the shades of argumentation among the Radicals. Hence I'm limited to this more than rough draft. Those who are interested will find a full account in H. Detering's thesis which caused me to write down this summary. See his "Paulusbriefe ohne Paulus? Die Paulusbriefe in der holländischen Radikalkritik," Frankfurt/M, Berlin, Bern, New York, Paris, Wien: Peter Lang, 1992, ISBN ß7246366: 3-631-44787-6. In his book, he deals with each of the Radicals separately. He describes how their ideas were rejected and calumniated. Obviously the impact of their results were feared, for they were seen as an attack on Christian Faith. But then, most of the Radicals were pious parish ministers who - notwithstanding their denial of a Jesus of history - nonetheless wrote heart-stirring poems about Jesus. The most important fact, however - and I have accepted it only after a thorough investigation of the existing literature - is that up to the present day nobody has refuted the essential arguments the Radicals put forward in defense of their conclusions. Thus a reevaluation of the work of these Radicals should rightly be mo

from above

[Peter Kirby]

So what is one of the arguments?

[Clive]

"Christianity in its origin was nothing else than a Jewish-Messianic movement ... the figure of Jesus had never existed, but represented a symbolization and personification of thoughts that could only make full headway in the second century. A gnostic messianic community later appeared alongside the Jewish-Christian messianic community. In the period between 70 and 135 CE the two groups opposed one another with bitter animosity.

"Only in the middle of the second century did they achieve a reconciliation, in which the gnostic community had 'Paul' as its representative and the Jewish-Christian community had Peter. The result of this process of reconciliation was the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. ... the letters of Paul are all inauthentic and represent the product of the newly-believing, gnostic-messianic community."

No Jesus of Nazareth.

Various christs

Meeting with Jewish groups who look as if they have same beliefs but actually not.

Various arguments between these groups.

One / some groups attempts an orthodox history. Not clear if there were key figures or if they are all made up characters.

Emperor eventually gets interested

[gmx]

I've a feeling Peter's point might be that this is an extremely complex field and the amount of reading one has to undertake in order to hold a convincing dialog on any given forum topic is substantial. The work of Loman and Van Manen et al has been subjected to a hundred years of critical analysis, and has for a variety of reasons been overwhelmed. I don't pretend to have that scholarship at my fingertips. That certainly doesn't mean that orthodox scholarship is always correct, and many here dispute it with full vigor. That's why I said it would be an interesting discussion to have on this forum, to start with a catalog of the response of orthodox scholarship to dutch radical criticism, and pick it apart from there...

[Clive]

Overwhelmed or three monkeys?

[Ulan]

Overwhelmed or three monkeys?

No. The answers you got were about making an argument.

What you did was list the major points made by the Dutch Radicals. I think many people here know those at least superficially. The real work starts when you make an argument with regard to each point, an argument why you think it's a better explanation than the existing model, with evidence from the texts or elsewhere that give the point weight.

That part is work. I guess nobody here wants to do this work for you.

Another part of the reaction is that many of these points have been already battled over, even here. It may help to limit the scope somewhat.

[Clive]

Isn't it a very simple argument?

Someone walks into a cave, makes a sound and hears an echo.

What is the echo? The gods speaking back or a noise reflecting? Theological explanation or scientific explanation.

Go with the gods speaking back philosophy. What should I do to communicate with them? We have a very clear record involving rituals, magick, special classes - shamans and priests, eventually kings and emperors seeing it as very useful.

This God bothering has all sorts of permutations, one involves a god becoming a man and sacrificing itself instead of us sacrificing stuff to the gods.

A Christ messiah is invented.

Other groups with other sets of beliefs attempt to write stories about how this God became human, born of a woman, virgin birth and similar are necessary to enable the transfer of a god into human form. There never was a human behind all this. It is set at Passover for theological reasons.

The real problem is this insistence that there was a grain in this pearl, a Jesus behind it all, that has led everyone off on a huge wild goose chase.

[Ulan]

Isn't it a very simple argument?

No, because you don't actually ask a question you want to discuss. The outline you gave has been gone over here time and time again. There's dozens of threads and thousands of posts about this.

What do you want me to say with regard to this?
Whether it's a possible scenario? Sure.
Is it likely? Maybe.
Is this how it happened? Who knows?

[MrMacSon]

Present the arguments, then.

So what is one of the arguments?

Apart from what Detering has reproduced, or some commentary in places like Wikipedia, the arguments of the Dutch Radicals are locked away in hard copy in Dutch or German language books1 or periodicals/journals (or seemingly, Chinese2).

1a

• Quaestiones Paulinea: Prolegomena?. 'Necessity of a revision of the foundations of our knowledge of the original Paulinism',
  • Theologische Zeitschrift (Theological Magazine) 1881/2(?).
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae: 'Research into the authenticity of the letter to the Galatians, 1st chapter, The external evidence', ib.
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae: Continued. 'The external evidence' etc.. ib.
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae: 'Defense and clarification', ib.
  1883. Quaestiones Paulinae: 'Second and final sequel of the first chapter', ib.
  
  1886. Quaestiones Paulinae II, § 1. Review and transition to the second chapter, ib.

1b - http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_jaa002189801 ... 1_0016.php

• see the next post for a full list -

1c

• 1891. 'The message of Flavius ​​Josephus regarding the cause and date of execution of John the Baptist', ib.
  1891. 'A place tainted by Flavius ​​Josephus (Antiq. XVIII, 5 1)', Reports and meded. Kon. Akad. d. Act. dept. Lett. , 3 e series , 8 e dl. ,
  1892, p. 120 ff. ibid

1d - Loman AD (1884) 'Symbooll en Werkellijkheid in de Evangelische Geschiedenis De Gids' 48: 265-304.

• (in Reformed Dogmatics: Prolegomena By Herman Bavinck)
  
  "Symbol and reality in the evangelical history, The Guide . Separatim, Amsterdam 1884."

2 Het Getuigenis Aangaande Johannes In Het Fragment Van Muratori (1865) (Chinese Edition)

• Product Details
  • Hardcover: 160 pages
    Publisher: Kessinger Publishing, LLC (February 23, 2010)
    Language: Chinese
    ISBN-10: 1160498652
    ISBN-13: 978-1160498654

[MrMacSon]

1b - http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_jaa002189801 ... 1_0016.php

• [p. 69]
  
  Lijst der geschriften van A.D. Loman = List of writings of AD Loman.
  
  1850. Three-part adaptation of Evang. Luth. chants, Amsterdam.
  1852-54. Four-part chorale book of Evang. Luth. chants, Amsterdam.
  1853. Should we also do our papal appointment of bishops in this country less wear? A word following hand. 18: 12-17. Deventer.
  1854. The family of Isak and Rebekah Learn Reasons for evangelicals n o . 7.
  1855. Music at the old Hebraeën, Common uses konst- and letter messenger n o . 9.
  1855. Isa. VII: 14-16, in relation to the matters by Dr. Oosterzee in his Christology (I, pp. 256-268) is said theologian Contributions .
  1856. The prayer of the authenticity of these theologians humility, Amsterdam.
  1857. Paul and the apostles columns, Gospel Mirror .
  1858. The Song of Jacob, Gen. XLIX, theologian Contributions .
  1859. The Gospel and the biographies of Jesus Christ, Gospel Mirror .
  1860. A single warrior, The Guide .
  1861. Psalm VIII, New and Old .
  1861. A new way to reconcile faith and science, The Guide .
  1861. An introductory word for the human development of Jesus Christ from the High German Th. Keim, Amsterdam.
  1862. Rome and the Italiaansche issue Gospel Mirror .
  1862. Why seek ye the living among the dead? Paaschpreek preceded by an answer to the Weleerw. Zeergel. Mr. Ludw. C. Lentz, Amsterdam.
  1862. Test of psychological exegesis (1 Cor. 15: 1-2), theologian Contributions .
  1862. Dr. Fr. Born W. Scheuer, Ecclesiastical Gazette , 12 July .
  1863. Faith and criticism Gospel Mirror .
  1863. A critical study examined critically, theologian Contributions .
  
  [p. 70]
  
  1864. The fourth Gospel, New and Old .
  1865. Secondary education in the capital, Amsterdam.
  1865. Contributions to introduce the Johannine scriptures of the NT 1 st part: The testimony of John at the fragment of Muratori, Amsterdam.
  1866. An apologetic piece of art, The Guide .
  1866. John's Gospel to the origin, destination and use in ancient times (Lectures on Biblical messages about the life of Jesus, p. 227 VGG.) Amsterdam.
  1866. Guest speaker at the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the Cecilia Society, Amsterdam.
  1867. The apostrophe to Jerusalem, Matt. XXIII: 37 VGG. Theological Magazine .
  1868. A few words on the occasion of the speech to the opening of the 50 th general assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod Rev. AJ Schroder, Amsterdam.
  1868. Protestantism and church authority, speech at the commencement of classes at the Lutheran Seminary, Amsterdam.
  1868. A new edition of the Canon Muratorius, Theological Magazine .
  1869. Contributions to the criticism of the Synoptic Gospels: The parable of the tares, Matt. XIII: 24-30, Theological Magazine .
  1869. The religion of our time, advocates reason for thinkers, the guide .
  1869. Christmas Sermon in: Stuiverspreeken spokesmen of the new direction .
  1870. The war and civilization, Time Questions XXXIV , 1.
  1870. Contributions etc. The five spell groups in the Gospel of Matthew, Theological Magazine .
  1870. Contributions etc. The evangelical epic and Markus Hypothesis Volkmar, ib.
  1870. Contributions etc. The composition of the Gospel of Matthew, in connection considered the question of the origin of the canonical gospels in general, ib.
  1870. Ferdinand Christian Baur, De Gids.
  1871. Contemplation time, New Years .
  1871. The resilience of Pine godsdienstigen mensch, language of faith .
  1871. Gedenckclanck. - Former Dutch songs from the Nederlandt Chen Gedenckclanck of Adrianus Valerius (1626), published by the Society for N. Dutch Music.
  1871. A couple of notes made ​​by Dr. of Vlotens gleanings in Nederl. Spectator of Dec. 2, Nederl. Spectator n o . 50.
  1872. Twelve Beggar Songs, modified and explained briefly for voice and piano, Amsterdam. Published by the Vereeniging N. Dutch Music.
  1872. Contributions etc. The parable of the banquet in Matthew and Luke, Theological Magazine .
  
  [p. 71]
  
  1873. The moderns as the middle party, one for reading to answer the question: who are the fighters of the modern direction and what she put her dependents? Amsterdam.
  1873. Contributions etc. The mystery of parables Theological Magazine .
  1874. Reexamined, the so-called fragment of Muratori Theological Magazine .
  1874. A Gospel for the fourth position, the guide .
  1875. The Second Chamber of the States-General, 7 April.
  1875. The testimony of Papias on Scripture and Tradition, Theological Magazine .
  1876. The unspeakable I. Guide .
  1877. The construction of the Fourth Gospel Theological Magazine .
  1877. Speech Confusion, The Guide .
  1878. The unspeakable II Guide .
  1879. The unspeakable III Guide .
  1879. Contributions etc. The Synoptic quaestie and the method of its treatment following Dr. A. Pierson's writings about the Sermon on the Mount, Theological Magazine .
  1879. Contributions etc. The method of Synoptic criticism following Dr. A. Pierson's writings about the Sermon on the Mount, ib.
  1879. From the travelogue of a refugee, Netherlands .
  1880. Antique and modern Christianity, The Guide .
  1880. Speech held by Prof. AD Loman, 28 Oct. 1880 Description of the seventeenth Protestantendag .
  1882. The oldest Christianity, Voices from the Free Gcmeente .
  1882. Correspondence, ib.
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae. Prolegomena. Necessity of a revision of the foundations of our knowledge of the original Paulinism, Theological Magazine .
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae. Investigation into the authenticity of the letter to the Galatians, 1 st chapter, the external evidence, ib.
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae. Continuation. The external evidence etc. ib.
  1882. Quaestiones Paulinae. Defense and clarification, ib.
  1883. Quaestiones Paulinae. Second drop and closing of the first chapter, ib.
  1883. Luther 1483-1883, The Guide .
  1884. Symbol and reality in the evangelical history, The Guide . Separatim, Amsterdam 1884.
  1884. The so-called symbolic conception of evangelical history and her latest fighting in the Inaugural lecture of Dr. J. Cramer, Amsterdam.
  1884. The Apocalypse of Barnabas Theological Magazine .
  1884. An omen asks Dr. van Manen's criticism, ib.
  1886. Paulus en de Kanon, ib.
  1886. Quaestiones Paulinae II, § 1. Review and transition to the second chapter, ib.
  
  [p. 72]
  
  1887. An anonymous English about the origins of Christianity, ib.
  1888. The origin of the belief in Jesus' resurrection, the guide .
  1889. Obituary. Ph. R. Hugenholtz, Theological Magazine .
  1889. The Song and Oratory.
  1890. The latest edition of Agrapha, ib.
  1891. The message of Josephus about the cause and date of execution of John the Baptist, ib.
  1891. A place tainted by Flavius ​​Josephus (Antiq. XVIII, 5. 1) Reports and comm. Could. Akad. d. Law. dept. Lett. , 3 E series , 8 e dl. , 1892, pp. 120 ff.
  1893. Oratio pro domo, De Gids.
  1894. A new discovery, The Guide .
  1895. The melody of the anthem, Journal of North Nederl. Music history .
  1895. In memory of Jhr. Mr. JCM van Riemsdijk, ib.
  1896. Two Inaugural speeches, The Guide .