Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Tenorikuma wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote: I would merely like to add that Herodias herself supplies some context for the second (female) half of the double divorce command in Mark 10.11-12…
Interesting idea — that never occurred to me. I have assumed that Mark was writing from a more Hellenistic perspective in which wives could divorce their husbands. (Matthew takes pains to correct this, since under Jewish law, only men could divorce their wives.)
Thanks. And yes, good point: Matthew removes the unnecessary bit.
One suspicion of mine that I am constantly testing is that Mark was familiar with Wars of the Jews (published mid-70s) but not Antiquities (published late 90s).
Have you met Bernard Muller? :D He holds that position vis-à-vis Luke.
Circumstantial evidence seems to favour this in many passages. With regard to the JBap story, Mark's historical errors and confusion about the name of Herodias's daughter may be due to the fact that John the Baptist and Salome are only discussed in Antiquities.
Do you mean ignorance of her name? I do not think Mark gives a name.

Ben.
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Tenorikuma »

In the best manuscripts of Mark, he calls the daughter Herodias. (And as is well known, he get wrong the detail of which of Herod's sons Herodias the mother had been married to. It's quite a spectacular mess.)
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
1) Formerly I was not interested in the question of whether John the Baptist was a historical figure. I guessed rather that Mark could have invented him. However, I was uncertain.

Peter's essay „The Authenticity of John the Baptist in Josephus“ has completely changed my opinion about this. Since then I accept that

- the passage of Josephus about John is authentic
- John the Baptist was a real historical figure
- Josephus' account of John is more or less historically accurate

2) It is well known that the reports of Josephus and Mark about the reason of John's death differ greatly.

In Josephus, Herod Antipas feared John because he thought that with the people following him John might lead a rebellion. Herod wanted to put him to death on the grounds of suspicion and nothing more. Mark said that Herodias wanted to kill John because John preached against her unlawful marriage with Herod Antipas. In the end, it was the whim of Herodias, conspiring with the young daughter, which led to John’s death.

Josephus
[116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, …
Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.
Mark
16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, ... 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias’s daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.” 23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.” 24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s5 head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother.

3) My question is

- not whether Mark has invented some other reasons (I assume this)
- but why Mark was doing this.
JW:
KK, you would agree that The Disciples are primary in GMark and John the Baptist is secondary.

Intercalation
enclosing or “sandwiching” one story in the middle of a different story (forming an A1, B, A2 pattern), so that each affects the interpretation of the other
6
12 And they went out, and preached that [men] should repent.

13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

  • 14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.

    15 But others said, It is Elijah. And others said, [It is] a prophet, [even] as one of the prophets.

    16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.

    17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for he had married her.

    18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.

    19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;

    20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was much perplexed; and he heard him gladly.

    21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, and the high captains, and the chief men of Galilee;

    22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and them that sat at meat with him; and the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.

    23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.

    24 And she went out, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptizer.

    25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou forthwith give me on a platter the head of John the Baptist.

    26 And the king was exceeding sorry; but for the sake of his oaths, and of them that sat at meat, he would not reject her.

    27 And straightway the king sent forth a soldier of his guard, and commanded to bring his head: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,

    28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the damsel; and the damsel gave it to her mother.

    29 And when his disciples heard [thereof], they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.
30 And the apostles gather themselves together unto Jesus; and they told him all things, whatsoever they had done, and whatsoever they had taught.
JW:
In the Intercalation the middle part, which is secondary to the primary story, has a lesson, which needs to be applied to the outer part, which would otherwise lack it, in order to understand the significance of the outer part. It is the outer part which has the current thematic significance to the author. Here it's difficult to identify the lesson because of the relationship of the size of the middle part to the outer part, the middle part being so much bigger.

I think the lesson the author had in mind from the middle part is that:

John the Baptist was killed for the wrong reason.

Just from GMark, either this is the main or at least a candidate for the main lesson for the story. Herod admired John the Baptist and did not want to kill him, only doing so very reluctantly. Beyond this, from a historical standpoint, assuming Josephus was history or at least considered history, then "Mark" (author) has indeed shown John the Baptist as killed for the wrong reason. Historically, John the Baptist was killed by Herod because he was a political threat to him. In GMark though John the Baptist was killed for a different reason, to honor a careless oath made to a girl at a feast (the wrong reason).

Again, I think GMark was written in Rome, "Mark" was in the same circle with Josephus, and "Mark's" audience would have been familiar with Josephus and the historical John the Baptist story.

The outer parts show the Disciples being sent out, going on and finishing their supposed historical mission. Keep in mind that there is no subsequent mission in GMark. They didn't dance with the holy spirit, this was their Acts. If the lesson of the middle part is doing something for the wrong reason than applying this to the outer part:

The Disciples went out on their mission for the wrong reason.

And why was it the wrong reason? Well the entire Gospel gives the answer to that. They were looking for fame and glory in their lifetime.

The John the Baptist story also has GMark's popular theme of Cannibaalism. John the Baptist is presented on a platter at a feast foreshadowing/contrasting that man. More on that later.

As always, I really should be charging you guys for this.

Bonus material for Solo = Mark "Mark's" word, the Disciples' "healing" here is a physical healing. Also note that this is the only time "Mark" calls the Disciples "Apostles".


Josephus

The Israeli/Arab Conflict - The Balfour Declaration - 1917
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ah, yes, you are right. Mark 6.22. Completely forgot about that, though yes, I am aware that the whole thing is a mess. :)
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Giuseppe »

Mark 1:2-3 :
Long ago Isaiah the prophet wrote,

“I will send my messenger ahead of you.
He will prepare your path [τὴν ὁδόν] ”

“A messenger is calling out in the desert,
‘Prepare the path [τὴν ὁδὸν] for the Lord.
Make straight paths for him.’ ”
Mark 4:4:
He scattered the seed on the ground. Some fell on a path. [παρὰ τὴν ὁδόν], Birds came and ate it up.
Mark 4:15
What is seed scattered on a path like [παρὰ τὴν ὁδὸν] ? The message is planted. The people hear the message. Then Satan comes. He takes away the message that was planted in them.

The people hear the prophet (John the Baptist).

Satan/the birds/Herod comes and beheads John.

If I am correct also about Peter = the empty tomb, then who is ''the seed put on the thorns'' in the story ? The young ruler?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by robert j »

It's quite a spectacular mess.
In his commentary on the Gospel of Mark, http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark06.html
Michael Turton presents arguments that Mark 6:14-29 --- the passage in which Herod had John the Baptist beheaded --- may be an interpolation.

Turton provides several observations on the passage, then, beginning with an observation of a seam between 6:13 and 6:30, Turton goes on to present fairly detailed arguments based on, “… literary and stylistic reasons … for this passage being interpolated.” Turton addresses the idea of the passage as an intercalation.

I’m not inclined to further join the discussion here, or offer an opinion, just pointing out another interpretation.
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:The John the Baptist story also has GMark's popular theme of Cannibaalism. John the Baptist is presented on a platter at a feast foreshadowing/contrasting that man.
24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.
My impression is that the mother meant it figuratively, but the young daughter understood it literally. :)
JoeWallack wrote:More on that later.
More on yours later
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by andrewcriddle »

Tenorikuma wrote:In the best manuscripts of Mark, he calls the daughter Herodias. (And as is well known, he get wrong the detail of which of Herod's sons Herodias the mother had been married to. It's quite a spectacular mess.)
This reading AUTOU certainly has the best manuscript support; however AUTHS THS read by most manuscripts can be defended as a semitism misunderstood and corrected by atticizing scribes.

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Tenorikuma
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Tenorikuma »

Thanks, Andrew. The point would be the same, though: Mark doesn't seem to know the daughter's actual name.
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by outhouse »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
outhouse wrote:Take into account Mark is writing to a Roman audience, divorcing rebellious Jews trying to make this group seem completely divorced from trouble making jews.
But I agree that it is the question of whether Mark did not wish the "real" reason (suspicion of a rebellion) or whether he wished a certain other reason (wickedness of the Herodians).



The only problem I see is that Judaism was factually being divorced.

These Hellenist living in the Diaspora had been perverting Judaism for a long time. With Herods temple there was an explosion of semi converts and Gentiles making the pilgrimage every year to Passover.

The temple was a wonder of the world, and the most magnificent building ever done at the time. It brought tourist dollars in from everywhere for Rome.

Mark would not want to focus on rebellion or the corrupt temple because of Roman influence, he attacked in plain easy to understand the Jewish oppressed culture in Israel.
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