Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

[Adam]

Bonus material for Solo = Mark "Mark's" word, the Disciples' "healing" here is a physical healing. Also note that this is the only time "Mark" calls the Disciples "Apostles".

Gold star, but it's more complicated. Matthew never uses the word "apostle", at least not here, making indeed Mark alone here (6:30). Mark does contain "apostle" elsewhere, at 3:14, but this the manuscript evidence makes more likely an assimilation to Matthew 10:2, which is the only time "apostle" is used AT ALL in Matthew.
All in all, this story is late, going back to the ur-text Matthew and Mark share, not to the earlier version available to Luke and thus absent there. (But Luke uses "apostle" six times, John never.)

As displayed in this thread, the John the Baptist story in Mark (and Matthew) has historical discrepancies. It was absent from the Proto-Gospel (SA's Diatessaron).

[iskander]

Apostle means , 'one sent'. Until the great commission they are only disciples - not apostles. If apostle appears only once then, that is dead accurate .
The ' historical discrepancies' indicate the story is based on real events.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Nice work, KK. We may add that the historical scenario surrounding John the Baptist's death (according to Josephus) puts it around 37. This is incompatible with Mark, in which Jesus begins his ministry after JBap's death, yet is crucified by Pilate (who was removed from office in 36).

Agreed. Thanks for adding this.

The wording seems to indicate primarily that both stories are linked by the words "send out" (ἀποστέλλω - apostelló) and apostles (ἀπόστολοι - apostoloi).

7 And he called the twelve and began to send them out (ἀποστέλλειν) two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.
............. 17 For it was Herod who had sent (ἀποστείλας) and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias
............. 27 And immediately the king sent (ἀποστείλας) an executioner with orders to bring John’s head.
30 The apostles (ἀπόστολοι) returned to Jesus and told him all that they had done and taught.

It seems to me to be clear that the focus of the story is on Herod (and not on John or other persons). It shows Herod with a complex and contradictory character and how he interacts with opinions, persons, their intentions and activities.

14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus’ name had become known. Some said, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him.” 15 But others said, “He is Elijah.” And others said, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old.” 16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly. 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias’s daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.” 23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.” 24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother.

[andrewcriddle]

Nice work, KK. We may add that the historical scenario surrounding John the Baptist's death (according to Josephus) puts it around 37. This is incompatible with Mark, in which Jesus begins his ministry after JBap's death, yet is crucified by Pilate (who was removed from office in 36).

All Josephus says (Antiquities 18) is that the military defeat of Herod c 37 CE was thought to be a divine judgment for his execution of John the Baptist.
This need not mean that the execution of John had occurred all that recently.
See FWIW Plutarch Delay of Divine Justice

Andrew Criddle

[iskander]

Robin Lane Fox explains,
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&start=50

[andrewcriddle]

Robin Lane Fox explains,
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&start=50

Robin Lane Fox is quite possibly right.

However he does assume:
a/ that the Gospels are correct as to why Herod arrested and killed John, i.e. Herod's controversial marriage. (Josephus does not mention this as the reason for John the Baptist's death.)
b/ This marriage occurred after the death of Philip. (Josephus does not explicitly say so although I agree it is implied, and the Gospels at least imply the contrary.)

Andrew Criddle

[iskander]

Robin Lane Fox explains,
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2388&start=50

Robin Lane Fox is quite possibly right.

However he does assume:
a/ that the Gospels are correct as to why Herod arrested and killed John, i.e. Herod's controversial marriage. (Josephus does not mention this as the reason for John the Baptist's death.)
b/ This marriage occurred after the death of Philip. (Josephus does not explicitly say so although I agree it is implied, and the Gospels at least imply the contrary.)

Andrew Criddle

Yes, Lane Fox is reading Josephus and the Gospels and from the information these books provide , he assumes that the death would have occurred in 36 AD.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

It seems to me to be clear that the focus of the story is on Herod (and not on John or other persons). It shows Herod with a complex and contradictory character and how he interacts with opinions, persons, their intentions and activities.

Mark seems to place great emphasis on the listening of Herod

commentary	story
- Herod heard of Jesus' marvelous works - Herod believes in holy powers and in a resurrected John	14 King Herod heard of it, for Jesus’ name had become known. Some said, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him.” 15 But others said, “He is Elijah.” And others said, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old.” 16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.”
- Herod heard John with mixed feelings - Herod feared John and believed that John is a righteous and holy man - Herod is a emotional man	17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly.
- Herod was thrilled by the dance and sweared a hasty oath - Herod beheaded John contrary to his own conviction and because of the oath and his guests	21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias’s daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.” 23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.” 24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother.

A possible explanation is that John the Batpist ... represents the seed thrown on the thorns in the Parable of Sower.

Mark 4:7

Other seed fell among thorns. The thorns grew up and crowded out the plants. So the plants did not bear grain.

The thorns cause the death of the seed. What are the thorns ?
Mark 4:18-19 :

And what is seed scattered among thorns like? The people hear the message. But then the worries of this life come to them. Wealth comes with its false promises. The people also long for other things. All of these are the kinds of things that crowd out the message. They keep it from producing fruit.

I agree with that in some sense.

18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

What do you think/suspect is going on with that? Why so many changes or (probably) unhistorical details?

I think these are the first two reasons

- Mark represented John as Elijah
- Mark represented Herod as the one sown among the thorns

[Giuseppe]

- Mark represented Herod as the one sown among the thorns

And Peter is the one sown among the rocky soil.

At this point I am just curious to know who is ''the seed thrown along the way'' : maybe is he just John the Baptist ?

He scattered the seed on the ground. Some fell on a path. Birds came and ate it up.

(Mark 4:4)

Jesus was buried by the 'best disciple' (Joseph of Arimathea) in a tomb ''cut of rock'' (=Peter) to make it empty (unfruitful) and raise himself in Galilee of Paul.

What about the tomb of John?

He was buried by ''his disciples''. John and his disciples share a thing in common: they prepare the way (ton odon) of the Lord.

And who are ''the birds''?

What is seed scattered on a path like? The message is planted. The people hear the message. Then Satan comes. He takes away the message that was planted in them.

(Mark 4:15)


The ''birds'' allude to Satan. Jesus is suspected of diabolic possession in Mark 11:27-33 :

Jesus and his disciples arrived again in Jerusalem. He was walking in the temple courtyard. Then the chief priests came to him. The teachers of the law and the elders came too. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “Who gave you authority to do this?”

Jesus replied, “I will ask you one question. Answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. Was John’s baptism from heaven? Or did it come from human authority? Tell me!”

They talked to each other about it. They said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ But what if we say, ‘From human authority’?” They were afraid of the people. Everyone believed that John really was a prophet.

So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”

Jesus said, “Then I won’t tell you by what authority I am doing these things either.”

It would be the only case where the presumed ''seed'' is innocent, though.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

.
A number of scholars discuss two more points

- the fate of John the Baptist is also used by Mark to foreshadow the fate of Jesus (Neil wrote about this topic a nice post)

- Mark presented Jesus as the „true shepherd-king“ in contrast to the death-bringing “king” Herod

I agree and think that both themes have been reflected in details of the story. However, I doubt a bit, that they shaped the basic idea for the story (bringing the mother and the daughter into the plot)