Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
1) Formerly I was not interested in the question of whether John the Baptist was a historical figure. I guessed rather that Mark could have invented him. However, I was uncertain.

Peter's essay „The Authenticity of John the Baptist in Josephus“ has completely changed my opinion about this. Since then I accept that

- the passage of Josephus about John is authentic
- John the Baptist was a real historical figure
- Josephus' account of John is more or less historically accurate

2) It is well known that the reports of Josephus and Mark about the reason of John's death differ greatly.

In Josephus, Herod Antipas feared John because he thought that with the people following him John might lead a rebellion. Herod wanted to put him to death on the grounds of suspicion and nothing more. Mark said that Herodias wanted to kill John because John preached against her unlawful marriage with Herod Antipas. In the end, it was the whim of Herodias, conspiring with the young daughter, which led to John’s death.

Josephus
[116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, …
Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.
Mark
16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, ... 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias’s daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.” 23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.” 24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s5 head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother.

3) My question is

- not whether Mark has invented some other reasons (I assume this)
- but why Mark was doing this.
Giuseppe
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Giuseppe »

A possible explanation is that John the Batpist (with the other John son of Zebedee, in virtue of the same name) represents the seed thrown on the thorns in the Parable of Sower.

Mark 4:7
Other seed fell among thorns. The thorns grew up and crowded out the plants. So the plants did not bear grain.
The thorns cause the death of the seed. What are the thorns ?

Mark 4:18-19 :
And what is seed scattered among thorns like? The people hear the message. But then the worries of this life come to them. Wealth comes with its false promises. The people also long for other things. All of these are the kinds of things that crowd out the message. They keep it from producing fruit.
The ''thorns'' are symbol of materialistic wealth and earthly kingdom (the magnificent court of Herod is one example). The Crown of Thorns put on Jesus by Romans is a parody of the presumed (but only presumed) claim of Jesus of an earthly kingdom.

The 'false promises of wealth' refers to the promise of Herod to fulfill Salome.

For Mark, the 'sin' of John the Baptist may be well described in Josephus :
In Josephus, Herod Antipas feared John because he thought that with the people following him John might lead a rebellion. Herod wanted to put him to death on the grounds of suspicion and nothing more.
But the kingdom promised by Jesus is not of this world, etc.

Therefore women kill John, while the women witness the resurrection of Jesus.

Therefore John is buried (only), while Jesus is buried and is risen.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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maryhelena
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by maryhelena »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
1) Formerly I was not interested in the question of whether John the Baptist was a historical figure. I guessed rather that Mark could have invented him. However, I was uncertain.

Peter's essay „The Authenticity of John the Baptist in Josephus“ has completely changed my opinion about this. Since then I accept that

- the passage of Josephus about John is authentic
- John the Baptist was a real historical figure
- Josephus' account of John is more or less historically accurate

2) It is well known that the reports of Josephus and Mark about the reason of John's death differ greatly.

In Josephus, Herod Antipas feared John because he thought that with the people following him John might lead a rebellion. Herod wanted to put him to death on the grounds of suspicion and nothing more. Mark said that Herodias wanted to kill John because John preached against her unlawful marriage with Herod Antipas. In the end, it was the whim of Herodias, conspiring with the young daughter, which led to John’s death.

Josephus
[116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, …
Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.
Mark
16 But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” 17 For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, 20 for Herod feared John, ... 21 But an opportunity came when Herod on his birthday gave a banquet for his nobles and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 For when Herodias’s daughter came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his guests. And the king said to the girl, “Ask me for whatever you wish, and I will give it to you.” 23 And he vowed to her, “Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half of my kingdom.” 24 And she went out and said to her mother, “For what should I ask?” And she said, “The head of John the Baptist.” 25 And she came in immediately with haste to the king and asked, saying, “I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” 26 And the king was exceedingly sorry, but because of his oaths and his guests he did not want to break his word to her. 27 And immediately the king sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s5 head. He went and beheaded him in the prison 28 and brought his head on a platter and gave it to the girl, and the girl gave it to her mother.

3) My question is

- not whether Mark has invented some other reasons (I assume this)
- but why Mark was doing this.
The Markan writer had a different focus than the Josephan writer. The Josephan threat of rebellion verse the Markan brother-in-law marriage. Both these elements played a large part in Hasmonean history. Josephus places his story around 36/37 c.e. - 100 years from the events of 63 b.c.e. As he placed other stories in years that were anniversaries of major Hasmonean history.

6 c.e. Quirinius and Judas the Galilean. 70 years from 63 b.c.e. (Aristobulus II and two sons capture)
36/37 c.e. Antipas, Aretas and John the Baptist. 100 years from 63 b.c.e.
52/53 c.e. Felix and the Egyptian. 100 years from 48/47 b.c.e. (beheading of Alexander of Judaea)
62/64 c.e. Albinus and James the brother of Jesus. 100 years from 37 b.c.e. ( crucifixion and beheading of Antigonus).
70 c.e. Titus and Jesus ben Ananus. 100 years from 30 b.c.e. (drowning of Hyrancus II, last of the Hasmonean rulers).

These dates indicate, to me, that the Josephan figures of Judas the Galilean, John the Baptist, the Egyptian, James the brother of Jesus and Jesus ben Ananus, are not historical figures. They are literary creations used to mark the spot as it were, to mark anniversaries of important Hasmonean history.

If the above is what Josephus was doing with his dating structure - what was Mark doing? Mark's focus is on brother-in-law marriage. As Josephus, in his John the Baptist story is referencing earlier Hasmonean history - so too is the Markan writer. The brother-in-law marriage of note in Hasmonean history is that of Alexander Janneaus to his brother's wife - Salome Alexandra. Two sons of this marriage were Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II. The daughter of Hyrcanus II was Alexandra. She married the son of Aristobulus II, Alexander of Judaea. That marriage produced Mariamne I. Mariamne I became the grandmother of Herodias - Salome Alexandra being her great great grandmother....

The John the Baptist story in gMark is not focused on a marriage between Antipas and Herodias ( gMark makes no mention of Antipas.....) but on Hasmonean history and the role that Herod (the Great) played in that history. The role Herod played was by taking a Hasmonean princess as his wife. In effect, so to speak, promising Mariamne half of his kingdom i.e. a Herodian/Hasmonean dynasty. (as in brother-in-law marriage - Herod took a Hasmonean wife to which he was not entitled to take...)

So, Herod, in the Markan story has John the Baptist beheaded - as Herod the Great, historically had a son of Aristobulus II beheaded.

Or, as the christian story goes, the John the Baptist movement had to give way to the Jesus movement. Hasmonean history, Hasmonean earthly rule was beheaded, it had to give way to the spiritual kingdom of the gospel Jesus.

The above is a take on what viewing the Markan John the Baptist story as a political allegory would look like..... ;)
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote:Therefore women kill John, while the women witness the resurrection of Jesus.

Therefore John is buried (only), while Jesus is buried and is risen.
maryhelena wrote:Or, as the christian story goes, the John the Baptist movement had to give way to the Jesus movement. Hasmonean history, Hasmonean earthly rule was beheaded, it had to give way to the spiritual kingdom of the gospel Jesus.
Thank you both. First, I find it very interesting that both of you think, that the reason was a comparison with Jesus in some sense.

It seems to me that there is a very simple answer to my question. Mark changed the reason of the death, so that John is depicted as a suffering Elijah (John = Elijah; Herod + Herodias = Ahab + Jezebel). I assume this was probably one of Mark's main reasons.

But I agree. It is also my impression that here is more than Elijah and that it has something to do with Jesus.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:It seems to me that there is a very simple answer to my question. Mark changed the reason of the death, so that John is depicted as a suffering Elijah (John = Elijah; Herod + Herodias = Ahab + Jezebel). I assume this was probably one of Mark's main reasons.
I think you are probably right. I would merely like to add that Herodias herself supplies some context for the second (female) half of the double divorce command in Mark 10.11-12:

11 And He says to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”

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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Secret Alias »

It is a difficulty to overcome for those equating 'John the Baptist' with Elijah that in traditional Jewish messianic belief the messiah not his forerunner is Elijah. In many Jewish homes to this day a 'chair of Elijah' is placed inside of the sukkah to symbolize an expectation for the one who is to come. Some put the chair on the wall.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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outhouse
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by outhouse »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.3) My question is

- not whether Mark has invented some other reasons (I assume this)
- but why Mark was doing this.
To me its simple.

Mark using and plagiarized OT text is making the death more tied to OT theology while in the same hand, removing the rebellious nature of Johns death so that it looked like Christians were not Zealots.


Johns death by Mark is over insults to a royal family, and the wish of a young girl.

Johns death by Josephus is for having large crowds like any Zealot or rebellious group would.


Take into account Mark is writing to a Roman audience, divorcing rebellious Jews trying to make this group seem completely divorced from trouble making jews.
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

outhouse wrote:Mark using and plagiarized OT text is making the death more tied to OT theology while in the same hand, removing the rebellious nature of Johns death so that it looked like Christians were not Zealots.
I tend to disagree, because I think that John does not represent the opinion of Mark (or Jesus). In Mark's story

- John criticize Herod on the basis of a legal argument (Mark 6:18 - For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful (ἔξεστίν) for you to have your brother’s wife.”) Josephus (AJ 15.7.10 - though this was not according to the Jewish laws (Ἰουδαίων νόμους); for with us it is lawful (ἔξεστιν) for a husband to do so) and Mark's Pharisees argue in the same way (Mark 10:2 - And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, “Is it lawful (ἔξεστιν) for a man to divorce his wife?”)

- Jesus argues on the basis of a creation ethics (Mark 10:6.9 But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female ... and the two shall become one flesh ... What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”)

It applies in principle
Only the husband could divorce a spouse under Jewish law, whereas both spouses had the right of divorce under Roman law.
Philip Reynolds, How Marriage Became One of the Sacraments
Josephus wrote about the divorce of Salome I
J. AJ 15.7.10
(259) But some time afterward, when Salome happened to quarrel with Costobarus, she sent him a bill of divorce (ἀπολυομένη) and dissolved her marriage with him, though this was not according to the Jewish laws (Ἰουδαίων νόμους); for with us it is lawful (ἔξεστιν) for a husband to do so; but a wife; if she departs (διαχωρισθείσῃ) from her husband, cannot of herself be married to another, unless her former husband put her away (ἐφιέντος). However, Salome chose to follow not the law (νόμον) of her country, but the law of her authority, and so renounced her wedlock; and told her brother Herod, that she left her husband out of her good-will to him, because she perceived that he, with Antipater, and Lysimachus, and Dositheus, were raising a sedition against him;
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

outhouse wrote:Take into account Mark is writing to a Roman audience, divorcing rebellious Jews trying to make this group seem completely divorced from trouble making jews.
But I agree that it is the question of whether Mark did not wish the "real" reason (suspicion of a rebellion) or whether he wished a certain other reason (wickedness of the Herodians).
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Mark: Why the Baptist had to die for some other reasons

Post by Tenorikuma »

Ben C. Smith wrote: I would merely like to add that Herodias herself supplies some context for the second (female) half of the double divorce command in Mark 10.11-12…
Interesting idea — that never occurred to me. I have assumed that Mark was writing from a more Hellenistic perspective in which wives could divorce their husbands. (Matthew takes pains to correct this, since under Jewish law, only men could divorce their wives.)

One suspicion of mine that I am constantly testing is that Mark was familiar with Wars of the Jews (published mid-70s) but not Antiquities (published late 90s). Circumstantial evidence seems to favour this in many passages. With regard to the JBap story, Mark's historical errors and confusion about the name of Herodias's daughter may be due to the fact that John the Baptist and Salome are only discussed in Antiquities.
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