The Origins of Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Michael BG
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by Michael BG »

neilgodfrey wrote: But Paul's Christ-worship was largely a philosophical, abstract form of religion, like other Jewish "gnostic" type sects. From 70 CE we find a need for something much more concrete -- a serious replacement for the Temple and old form of worship, and an explanation for what had happened and a foundation for a new identity or preserving a stronger form of the old identity.

The messiah idea (as in a conquering Davidic hero to take over the political rule) only emerged during the Jewish war of 66-70 itself, and up to or again in the 130s with the Second Revolt. This concept of the messiah was not part of mainstream turn of the century Jewish thought, nor of Paul's, till then.
If you see Paul’s Jesus Messiah (Christ) as having no Messianic role why does Paul call him Christ? Why does Paul see him as bringing in the end of days just like the Messiah?

How do you remove all the Messianic language Paul uses about Jesus Christ?
eedipus
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by eedipus »

MrMacSon wrote:
eedipus wrote:
... the origin of Christianity was probably a result of the destruction of the 2nd. Temple ... by the Romans in the year 70AD.
True, but do you think the "crisis point in their identity with their monotheistic God ... facing the end of their Jewish faith in their God" came then of after the put down of the Bar Kokhba revolt and the then absolute sacking of Jerusalem with no chance of rebuilding the Temple.

The Roman-Jewish Wars between 66 and136AD were a catastrophe for the Jewish people,
and in terms of religious significance I see the sack of Jerusalem and in particular the destruction
of the Temple in 70AD as the watershed between the beginning of Christianity and Rabbinic
Judaism.
The possibility of a large exodus of Jews from Palestine would have galvanized the Jewish intellectual elite to produce an answer that evolved through the centuries to what we have today.
The Bar Kokhba revolt from 132 to 135AD was certainly another crisis point but in making a choice
I would choose the destruction of the Temple in 70AD that produced the crisis in their faith and initiated the origins of Christianity.

Dennis Sutherland.








eedipus wrote:
Where was the promised Messiah?

The answer to the problem was the opposite to what they had previously thought. The Messiah was not yet to come, He had already been but he had not been recognized for who he was.

It was probably a Hellenic Jew who fashioned the story of Jesus of Nazareth. He intuitively understood the real meaning of the Greek mystery cults, the Elusinian Mysteries, and wrote the story of Jesus as an allegory for how we should view life and death but, tragically, it was altered and interpreted literally. It is not that the Jesus story is untrue, but it was really intended to point to a greater truth.
An nteresting proposition.
outhouse
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by outhouse »

iskander wrote:
What made "Christianity " first noticed by the men and the women living in Palestine at the time of 'Jesus'?.

That's just it. It was never noticed in Palestine. He was a failed messiah in Judaism and by all written records was a traveling teacher in small Aramaic villages.


It was the Passover events that drew the attention and made him famous, after his death.


Christianity was not made in Israel. It was made by Hellenist in the Diaspora who had long been perverting Judaism staying as weak Proselytes not wanting to embrace cultural Judaism and all its pesky laws like cutting your junk. These are the people who found value in the divorce of cultural Judaism in the Diaspora and embracing monotheism through the sacrificed man.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by neilgodfrey »

Michael BG wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote: But Paul's Christ-worship was largely a philosophical, abstract form of religion, like other Jewish "gnostic" type sects. From 70 CE we find a need for something much more concrete -- a serious replacement for the Temple and old form of worship, and an explanation for what had happened and a foundation for a new identity or preserving a stronger form of the old identity.

The messiah idea (as in a conquering Davidic hero to take over the political rule) only emerged during the Jewish war of 66-70 itself, and up to or again in the 130s with the Second Revolt. This concept of the messiah was not part of mainstream turn of the century Jewish thought, nor of Paul's, till then.
If you see Paul’s Jesus Messiah (Christ) as having no Messianic role why does Paul call him Christ? Why does Paul see him as bringing in the end of days just like the Messiah?

How do you remove all the Messianic language Paul uses about Jesus Christ?
No no no.... Jesus is obviously the Christ in Paul's teaching. I even said he worshiped "Christ". My qualification was that Paul did not see Jesus as a Davidic world conquering figure. He did not even address such an idea as something to be opposed. It was simply not on his radar. There was no single idea of what the Messiah was to do or be like in Second Temple Judaism. Paul's concept of the Christ is set out pretty well, I think, by Novenson -- see especially parts 1 and 2.

Paul's Christ was a Logos or Wisdom type figure, a Heavenly Man/Adam.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by Charles Wilson »

iskander wrote:OK, Charles. please , why do you think this cancellation could be the origin of Christianity?
Iskander --

1. I have a few minutes before turning in for the night. I will come back to this Post at my leisure. This Post may get long before it's over.

2. The Thesis: The Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE provided a Story Line for the creation of a New Religion built around a savior/god. Jewish History was appropriated, dismembered and rewritten to a different end. As with most good stories, the actual descriptions may be fictional. as in: "This Story is about a child named "Peter" who came from a Preistly Settlement in Upper Galilee" - Is this Story True or False? We have Josephus for descriptions of the Passover Atrocity. We have the Archaeological Evidence of Settlements of the Priests, especially "Jabnit" for the Mishmarot Group Immer. Someone (Johanen ben Zakkai?) knew an incredible amount of information about the Mishmarot Priesthood and it is a simple task to find that Immer rotated into Jerusalem for Duty on the Sabbath after Wednesday in 4 BCE, being preceeded by Bilgah. A story appears to have been written. It may even have been true, as in: "The Temple was destroyed while the Mishmarot Group Jehoiarib was on Duty" - Is this Story True or False?

"Immer" is a word play with the Hebrew "Immar" which is "Lamb" - as in, "Lamb of God". The Semitic Story is hidden in the Greek and " 'mmr-Yah " becomes a name for the savior/god, especially in GJohn. At times the word-plays become transparent and the attempts to make the savior/god seem significant as the "Passover Lamb" become almost laughable. There is then a "First Story" of the Story of Immer which is almost destroyed at the 4 BCE Passover. Less apparent is the Second Story, of members of Bilgah and Immer rotating into Jerusalem for a "Duplicate Passover" 12 years later. A Priest who survived the First Death at the Passover Slaughter - by a miracle - is challenged by Jairus to try one Last Time to evict the Herodians and the Romans. The result is Death to the Priest - or perhaps Peter - and a realization that God operates on His time and in His way and all you can do is to don the Robes of the Priesthood and do as you were taught:

Matthew 5: 20 - 26 (RSV):

[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[21] "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
[24] leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
[26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

This is a Story about the Priesthood.

3. I'll start with Mark and add a little as needed. Some of this will drive a few of you to drink. Especially if you live in Cananada. It will take the form of assertions. The lengthier analysis is there if you will look...

4. Mark 1: 4 - 8. Introduction to the character "John". John is of the Mishmarot Group Bilgah. Bilgah has committed an Offense against the Priesthood. Bilgah's Ring, which holds the Victim for the Sacrifice, has been nailed down. Bilgah is not worthy to untie the ring of the new savior/god's sandal. John comes before "Jesus", as Bilgah comes before Immer, but must be lesser than Immer because of the offense.

5. Throughout these Stories, there are rewrites - I hate to call them Interpolations - from the Romans. "Holy Spirit", "Fishers of Men", etc.

6. Mark 1: 21 - 28. I invite you to read this with a different Intentionality, paying heed to the years and the languages. Drop the Metaphysics for a moment. The Demon knows "Jesus": "What have you to do with us..."? To set up the rest of the Story, read this as if the "Demon" is looking back to an event that occurred years ago. The "Demon" is acknowledging that something happened to "Jesus" - it just wasn't caused by the "Demons" that are hangin' around now.
I understand that "Your Mileage May Vary" and that's OK. After the completion of this, you can come back and see if the Intention makes sense.

7. I skip some to get to Mark 3: 1 - 6. "The Man with the Withered Hand" is extremely important. It is a Story from the Second Passover, 12 years after the 4 BCE Slaughter. It is a Story similar to the "Woman Bent over 18 Years" only it does not give a Time Marker. The man cannot write (...the withered hand), he cannot tell of what happened at the Interregnum between Herod and his son Archelaus 12 years ago. This is not "Jesus" but a Priest who is telling the Scribe that he is free to write about what happened. It is the Healing of the Withered Hand that threatens the Pharisees and the Herodians. It is the Fact that these two groups were responsible for the murder of 3000 and the Cancellation of Passover.

8. Mark 4: 35 - 41. Here is a description of the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. The Priest is in Antonia, in the "Realm of Heaven", resting. There is a telescoping of characters here as we shall soon see. One Priest is caught out in the "Storm". This Priest will certainly die in the Melee - won't he...?

More later.

CW
Clive
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by Clive »

Didn't Jung use similar arguments?


On the timing, might Jesus allegedly living forty years before the destruction of the Temple be theologically significant?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by Clive »

Lots of forty's in the gospels? Patterns!
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
iskander
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by iskander »

duplicate. please delete
Last edited by iskander on Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
iskander
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by iskander »

Charles Wilson wrote:
iskander wrote:OK, Charles. please , why do you think this cancellation could be the origin of Christianity?
Iskander --

1. I have a few minutes before turning in for the night. I will come back to this Post at my leisure. This Post may get long before it's over.

2. The Thesis: The Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE provided a Story Line for the creation of a New Religion built around a savior/god. Jewish History was appropriated, dismembered and rewritten to a different end. As with most good stories, the actual descriptions may be fictional. as in: "This Story is about a child named "Peter" who came from a Preistly Settlement in Upper Galilee" - Is this Story True or False? We have Josephus for descriptions of the Passover Atrocity. We have the Archaeological Evidence of Settlements of the Priests, especially "Jabnit" for the Mishmarot Group Immer. Someone (Johanen ben Zakkai?) knew an incredible amount of information about the Mishmarot Priesthood and it is a simple task to find that Immer rotated into Jerusalem for Duty on the Sabbath after Wednesday in 4 BCE, being preceeded by Bilgah. A story appears to have been written. It may even have been true, as in: "The Temple was destroyed while the Mishmarot Group Jehoiarib was on Duty" - Is this Story True or False?

"Immer" is a word play with the Hebrew "Immar" which is "Lamb" - as in, "Lamb of God". The Semitic Story is hidden in the Greek and " 'mmr-Yah " becomes a name for the savior/god, especially in GJohn. At times the word-plays become transparent and the attempts to make the savior/god seem significant as the "Passover Lamb" become almost laughable. There is then a "First Story" of the Story of Immer which is almost destroyed at the 4 BCE Passover. Less apparent is the Second Story, of members of Bilgah and Immer rotating into Jerusalem for a "Duplicate Passover" 12 years later. A Priest who survived the First Death at the Passover Slaughter - by a miracle - is challenged by Jairus to try one Last Time to evict the Herodians and the Romans. The result is Death to the Priest - or perhaps Peter - and a realization that God operates on His time and in His way and all you can do is to don the Robes of the Priesthood and do as you were taught:

Matthew 5: 20 - 26 (RSV):

[20] For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[21] "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
[22] But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
[24] leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
[25] Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
[26] truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

This is a Story about the Priesthood.

3. I'll start with Mark and add a little as needed. Some of this will drive a few of you to drink. Especially if you live in Cananada. It will take the form of assertions. The lengthier analysis is there if you will look...

4. Mark 1: 4 - 8. Introduction to the character "John". John is of the Mishmarot Group Bilgah. Bilgah has committed an Offense against the Priesthood. Bilgah's Ring, which holds the Victim for the Sacrifice, has been nailed down. Bilgah is not worthy to untie the ring of the new savior/god's sandal. John comes before "Jesus", as Bilgah comes before Immer, but must be lesser than Immer because of the offense.

5. Throughout these Stories, there are rewrites - I hate to call them Interpolations - from the Romans. "Holy Spirit", "Fishers of Men", etc.

6. Mark 1: 21 - 28. I invite you to read this with a different Intentionality, paying heed to the years and the languages. Drop the Metaphysics for a moment. The Demon knows "Jesus": "What have you to do with us..."? To set up the rest of the Story, read this as if the "Demon" is looking back to an event that occurred years ago. The "Demon" is acknowledging that something happened to "Jesus" - it just wasn't caused by the "Demons" that are hangin' around now.
I understand that "Your Mileage May Vary" and that's OK. After the completion of this, you can come back and see if the Intention makes sense.

7. I skip some to get to Mark 3: 1 - 6. "The Man with the Withered Hand" is extremely important. It is a Story from the Second Passover, 12 years after the 4 BCE Slaughter. It is a Story similar to the "Woman Bent over 18 Years" only it does not give a Time Marker. The man cannot write (...the withered hand), he cannot tell of what happened at the Interregnum between Herod and his son Archelaus 12 years ago. This is not "Jesus" but a Priest who is telling the Scribe that he is free to write about what happened. It is the Healing of the Withered Hand that threatens the Pharisees and the Herodians. It is the Fact that these two groups were responsible for the murder of 3000 and the Cancellation of Passover.

8. Mark 4: 35 - 41. Here is a description of the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. The Priest is in Antonia, in the "Realm of Heaven", resting. There is a telescoping of characters here as we shall soon see. One Priest is caught out in the "Storm". This Priest will certainly die in the Melee - won't he...?

More later.

CW
Thank you , Charles.
The story in the gospel of Mark would contain references to the general life of society . I would expect Latinisms, similarities in style, and so forth.
The character Jesus died a premature death on the gallows and this alone cannot explain why anyone would care to remember anything about him; death is cheap and it is an abundant commodity, and premature death is also plentiful.
Why would his contemporaries remember his words?
Last edited by iskander on Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Origins of Christianity

Post by neilgodfrey »

Clive wrote: On the timing, might Jesus allegedly living forty years before the destruction of the Temple be theologically significant?
I don't have the time to go into the details now but yes, definitely. Rabbinic traditions interpreted Jeremiah's preaching as being a forty year period or a generation prior to the fall of the first temple. The also saw the forty year generational period up to the fall of the second as marked by miraculous events, as a period of testing and warning.

And the references to "this generation" by Jesus in the Gospel of Mark allude to several Pentateuchal uses of "this generation" that was to be tried and tested 40 years for their disobedience.
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