The Origins of Christianity

[MrMacSon]

There were Christian-like beliefs prior to 70 CE; as per Paul's teachings, and others. Until 70 CE these were very much one of many of the forms of "Judaism" of the day. (It sounds odd to think of Paul as part of Second Temple Judaism, but scratch the surface and one finds that he was not alone among the competing sects or schools who claimed to be the "true Jews" while others were false, etc.) But Paul's Christ-worship was largely a philosophical, abstract form of religion, like other Jewish "gnostic" type sects.

From 70 CE we find a need for something much more concrete -- a serious replacement for the Temple and old form of worship, and an explanation for what had happened and a foundation for a new identity or preserving a stronger form of the old identity. Enter the symbolic/parabolic narratives that eventually came to be read literally (whether the first one was written down soon after 70 or only much later is another question).

While I can agree with most of that, as an abstract commentary, at least, I get the impression you've set a dichotomy at 70 CE, and an absolute dichotomy at that.

The messiah idea (as in a conquering Davidic hero to take over the political rule) only emerged during the Jewish war of 66-70 itself, and up to or again in the 130s with the Second Revolt. This concept of the messiah was not part of mainstream turn of the century Jewish thought, nor of Paul's, till then. The gospels are responding to the militaristic Davidic idea of a messiah that had emerged as part of the events of 70 CE.

Which "turn-of-the-century 'Jewish-thought'" are you referring to? ie. the turn of which century?

(and do you want to elaborate on the forms of Jewish thought you were alluding to /thinking of?)


This is interesting -

Placing the Jesus narrative a generation (40 years) prior to 70 was also probably part of this process of working out a revised form of what became Christianity. Jeremiah's ministry also began 40 years before the fall of Jerusalem, and this is noted by the Jewish interpreters, even though there is no explicit statement to that effect in Jeremiah itself: the text of Jeremiah includes the information, but indirectly: in the same was as the Synoptic Gospels do. It was a new narrative quite unlike anything conceived by Paul or others interested in a Christ/Logos figure up till then.

[John2]

iskander wrote;

"What made "Christianity " first noticed by the men and the women living in Palestine at the time of 'Jesus'?"

I think the DSS sect were proto-Jewish Christians, and I think their messianism is what got them noticed (at least by those in power), because it went hand in hand with their rejection of the Pharisees, Herodians, and the Temple and why they were persecuted (like Paul, who was arguably a Herodian or associated with them, had persecuted Christians when he was a Pharisee).

[iskander]

...

This is interesting -

Placing the Jesus narrative a generation (40 years) prior to 70 was also probably part of this process of working out a revised form of what became Christianity. Jeremiah's ministry also began 40 years before the fall of Jerusalem, and this is noted by the Jewish interpreters, even though there is no explicit statement to that effect in Jeremiah itself: the text of Jeremiah includes the information, but indirectly: in the same was as the Synoptic Gospels do. It was a new narrative quite unlike anything conceived by Paul or others interested in a Christ/Logos figure up till then.

The number forty
Mk 1:13 13 He was in the wilderness for forty days, tempted by Satan;

Mk 1L13 is a divine test. Satan here is the angel of Hashem ; in the Bible God wishes to see what the sufferer will do in order to reward the sufferer if he “pass” the test. For example ,

The rains (in Noah's day) fell for 40 days and nights (Genesis 7:4).
The rains (in Noah's day) fell for 40 days and nights (Genesis 7:4).
Moses was with God in the mount, 40 days and nights (Exodus 24:18).

...
God made Israel wander for 40 years (Numbers 14:33-34).
...

In Mk 1L13 Jesus is asking to be tested by God, as in Psalm 26:2

Psalm 26 Plea for Justice and Declaration of Righteousness

2 Prove me, O Lord, and try me;
test my heart and mind.

[Clive]

Don't forget Pentecost

So was Jesus 40 years before the destruction of the temple a test?

Are the cross, crucifixion and resurrection imports into something else? They don't seem to fit into the narrative, that sounds like another cycle of Jews do wrong, prophet turns up, an empire - Assyrians, Medes, Persians, Greeks, Romans - causes havoc, some form of resolution. (Noah, Moses ....)

[Clive]

As Homer was rewritten over the centuries, was there a constant need to rewrite Judaism? If you are God's chosen people and stuff happens, how do you explain that? Your god is not like the others, who are fickle, you have to explain why stuff happens. Continually being trampled means you have to come up with more and more explanations that evolve.

Cycles of 40 are used as motifs, sons of god get invented.

The New Testament is in the traditions of the prophets with new imported bits as iterations cause imports from whatever the new empire is to be assimilated.

If there isn't a prophet obviously to hand, invent one?

[iskander]

iskander wrote;

"What made "Christianity " first noticed by the men and the women living in Palestine at the time of 'Jesus'?"

I think the DSS sect were proto-Jewish Christians, and I think their messianism is what got them noticed (at least by those in power), because it went hand in hand with their rejection of the Pharisees, Herodians, and the Temple and why they were persecuted (like Paul, who was arguably a Herodian or associated with them, had persecuted Christians when he was a Pharisee).

Thank you,

Mark is the story of a religious Jewish reformer . The gospel of Mark is exclusively about Judaism and it is only concerned with religious problems.
My reading of Mark tells me that Jesus rejected the Mizvot as being a human invention . That alone is heresy. And this made him a target for the religious authority.

The independent evidence is provided by the drop of the ten commandments from the Jewish liturgy .

[neilgodfrey]

While I can agree with most of that, as an abstract commentary, at least, I get the impression you've set a dichotomy at 70 CE, and an absolute dichotomy at that.

If I understand your question correctly, then yes, the story of Jesus that we find in the gospels was unknown until after the Jewish War. The narrative itself is, I think, best understood as an attempt to address needs that came about because of that war. (I also have the Second Jewish War in the back of my mind and all the rebellions/riots that took place in between among the various Jewish centres, but there are too many more unknowns to be addressed if we go that route.)

The gospel narratives were woven around the Jewish scriptures and pointed to a "fulfilment" of those scriptures. The death of Jesus is for the first time set down as part allegory of the destruction of the old Temple and Mosaic order.

The messiah idea (as in a conquering Davidic hero to take over the political rule) only emerged during the Jewish war of 66-70 itself, and up to or again in the 130s with the Second Revolt. This concept of the messiah was not part of mainstream turn of the century Jewish thought, nor of Paul's, till then. The gospels are responding to the militaristic Davidic idea of a messiah that had emerged as part of the events of 70 CE.

Which "turn-of-the-century 'Jewish-thought'" are you referring to? ie. the turn of which century?

Around the time the birth/appearance of Jesus is set.

(and do you want to elaborate on the forms of Jewish thought you were alluding to /thinking of?)

Jewish scholar of Judaism Daniel Boyarim is one of several who pointed to the rabbinic interpretation of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah was that this figure was of a Messiah who would suffer and die yet be resurrected and argued that this rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah could not have been in response to Christian beliefs and that it had to have been inherited from pre-Christian times. The reason it could not have been borrowed from Christianity was that the belief emerged at a time of extreme Jewish-Christian animosity and loathing of one another.

Also Book of Enoch speaks of the death of a messiah that is quite distinct from Christian traditions. Also Daniel of course, including the Son of Man passage that represents the deaths of the Maccabean martyrs and their "resurrection" to independence. This passage (Hengel argues) was also derived in part from Isaiah's Suffering Servant prophecy and then Daniel's Son of Man image was interpreted more literally in the Book of Enoch. We can trace the progression of Jewish interpretations of Isaiah 53's Suffering Servant passage from metaphor to a literal figure in Enoch. It is unclear when Enoch was composed with some suggesting it was later first century and others prior to that. Even if it was later first century it was still composed around the time the first gospels were being written and is nonetheless independent of them.

The whole idea of the Christ being crucified by Romans, and his death being associated with the end of the Temple (torn curtain) and his tomb being a midrash on the destroyed first temple (Isaiah 22:16 -- tomb carved out of a rock) and him being mocked as a false messiah (such as emerged at the time of the War) and the very emphasis on crucifixion itself (the Jewish War saw thousands of Jews crucified outside the walls of Jerusalem) --- the author or creator of this Passion Narrative was writing in the context of the War and its aftermath.

[Clive]

I would like to explore the key Biblical theme of 40 since we are beginning the 40 days of Lent.
There are three things that are stressed during the 40 days of Lent: prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. Forty (40) from the list below is symbolic for trial, testing, and waiting. But in the use of the number 40 there is one underlying focus: it is a journey (see Pope Benedict XVI’s comments below), even if physical, it always leads to a spiritual time of growth and change.
• It rained 40 days and 40 nights during the Flood (Genesis 7: 4)
• Noah waited 40 days after the waters receded and the Ark settled on Mount
Ararat before he sent out the raven (Genesis 8: 3-8)
• Isaac was 40 years old when he married Rebecca (Genesis 25: 20)
• Esau was 40 years old when he married his two wives (Genesis 26: 34)
• The Israelites ate Manna 40 years in the Desert (Genesis 16: 35-6)
• Moses spent 40 days and nights on Mount Sinai (Exodus 24: 18) comes down to the
Golden Calf, break the tables. Then in Exodus 24: 28 he returns and fasts
40 days and 40 nights.
• The scouts from the 12 tribes spied out the Promised Land 40 days before
they returned a bad report (Numbers 13: 25)
• Therefore, the Israelites were required to spend 40 years “wandering” in the
Wilderness (Numbers 14: 33; Deuteronomy 29: 4)
• Joshua was 40 years old when he spied with the scouts (Numbers 13: 5;
Joshua 14: 7)
• Goliath “taunted” Israel 40 days before his defeat by David (1 Samuel 17: 16)
• King David reigned for 40 years (2 Samuel 5: 4)
• King Solomon reigned for 40 years (1 Kings 11: 42)
• Jonah preacah3ed to Nineveh for 40 days before they repented (Jonah 3: 4)
• Elijah fasted 40 days in the wilderness (1 Kings 19: 8)
• Purification of Mary is 40 days after birth of Jesus (Leviticus 12: 1-4) (Luke 2: 22-4)
• Jesus spent 40 days Fasting in the Desert after His baptism (Matthew 4: 1-2)
• Jesus also spent 40 days on earth following His Resurrection (Acts 1: 3)
• Jesus, by tradition, spent 40 hours in the tomb. A Blessed Sacrament devotion
originated in Milan in 1534 and was propagated by the Jesuits. St. John .....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ent=safari

[neilgodfrey]

So was Jesus 40 years before the destruction of the temple a test?

The rabbinic view as I recall it was that the original generation was condemned to 40 years and dying off as a consequence of their sin in rejecting Moses at Sinai. Jeremiah preached forty years to try to turn the Jews of his day from their fate -- his mission ended with the destruction of the temple. The 40 years prior to the fall of the second temple were a time of miraculous signs that should have been a warning to the Jews. There are a few hints in the gospels that lead us to suspect the story of Jesus was set in the time of Pilate because this set up a similar period of 40 years until the destruction of the temple: the punishment of the Jews for their rejection of Jesus, also the final period of opportunity to repent.

[Clive]

The quote above says there is another vector to 40 - a journey of a spiritual or physical type.