1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2075
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by spin » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:01 am

For followers of this problematic passage, which I think is an interpolation, I have thrown together another analysis with at least one novel addition on Reddit, that of a chiasm in 1 Cor 15:1-34, which naturally only works without v.3-11. (See the above link for more detail.) Here's the basic chiasm.
A: 1-2 hold firmly to the word

  B: 12-19 If the dead are not raised

    C: 20-23 The position of Christ

      D: 24-25 Subjection

        E: 26 death destroyed

      D' 27 Subjection

    C' 28 The position of Christ

  B' 29-32 If the dead are not raised

A' 33-34 sin no more
This seems a rather solid chiasm to me. Do you agree? It focuses in v.26 on the overthrow of death, which is the result of Christ being raised, the central issue of the section.

1 Cor 15
A: 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, 2 through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain.

3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have gone to sleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them—though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we proclaim and so you have come to believe.

B: 12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

C: 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

D: 24 Then comes the rest, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

E: 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

D': 27 For “He has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him.

C': 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

B': 29 Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 And why are we putting ourselves in danger every hour? 31 I die every day! That is as certain, brothers, as my boasting of you—a boast that I make in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If with merely human hopes I fought with wild animals at Ephesus, what would I have gained by it? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

A': 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 34 Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7873
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:35 am

There is a case to be made that verses 1-11 read as follows in the Marcionite text:

1 Now I declare to you, brothers, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain — 3b that Christ died, 4a that he was buried, 4b and that he was raised on the third day. 11b So we preach, and so you believed.

By the looks of things, this text (which is only slightly longer than the one you propose by cutting out all of 3-11) would still fit your chiasm, which I admit looks pretty good. The extra statements concerning Christ's death, burial, and being raised are still simple assertions of faith, not based the results of eyewitness testimony, thus maintaining the following argument that you make on the Reddit page:

Hang on a second, you should be asking, hasn't Paul just demonstrated that Christ has been raised in 3-7 with eye witness accounts? Why then does he need to go on extensively with this theoretical argument on whether Christ has been raised? There is a wave of conditionals, if... if... if... if... and so on. This is rendered totally useless, had he already produced eye witness reports as to the fact Christ had been raised.

(For the record, I do not think that the protases involving the dead in general being raised should be regarded as arguments against the authenticity of 1 Corinthians 15.3-11, since they could be read as reductio ad absurdum arguments leading to a deliberate collision with the resurrection of Christ as attested by eyewitnesses. But the protases involving Christ being raised seem to feel the full force of your argument above.)
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1545
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Charles Wilson » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:36 am

Spin!
Where'ya been Bwaah?

Nice insight. It's certainly not Markan since the Originating Brackets do not involve movement. The Chiasm was a widely used technique from what I understand. Any similar Chiasms in the NT?

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3357
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:52 am

to Spin,
I hate to hamper your effort in order to demonstrate that 1 Cor 15:3-11 is an interpolation (even if agree it is: http://historical-jesus.info/9.html), but I also think that 1 Cor 15:23-28 is also another interpolation as explained here: http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html#add

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:04 pm

spin wrote:For followers of this problematic passage, which I think is an interpolation, I have thrown together another analysis with at least one novel addition on Reddit, that of a chiasm in 1 Cor 15:1-34, which naturally only works without v.3-11. (See the above link for more detail.) Here's the basic chiasm.
A: 1-2 hold firmly to the word

  B: 12-19 If the dead are not raised

    C: 20-23 The position of Christ

      D: 24-25 Subjection

        E: 26 death destroyed

      D' 27 Subjection

    C' 28 The position of Christ

  B' 29-32 If the dead are not raised

A' 33-34 sin no more
This seems a rather solid chiasm to me. Do you agree? It focuses in v.26 on the overthrow of death, which is the result of Christ being raised, the central issue of the section.

1 Cor 15
A: 1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, 2 through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain.

3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have gone to sleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them—though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we proclaim and so you have come to believe.

B: 12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

C: 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

D: 24 Then comes the rest, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

E: 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

D': 27 For “He has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him.

C': 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

B': 29 Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 And why are we putting ourselves in danger every hour? 31 I die every day! That is as certain, brothers, as my boasting of you—a boast that I make in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If with merely human hopes I fought with wild animals at Ephesus, what would I have gained by it? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

A': 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 34 Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

JW:
The spinster!

I've mentioned before that I think Paul shows some of the same literary techniques that "Mark" (author) uses and I do think chiasms is one of them. First Epistle to the Thessalonians is generally considered Paul's earliest and I think it is the most rhetorical of his letters with special concentration of the same ironically contrasting style that "Mark" is famous for. Actually, what I find most interesting about 1 Thessalonians is that Paul never mentions "crucifixion", supporting my legendary Thread here Was Paul the First to Assert that Jesus was Crucified?. Of related interest, in the possible addition which is the subject of this Thread, "crucifixion" is likewise not mentioned.

Getting back though to chiasms, I think Paul does show a chiasm in 1 Thessalonians 1:

Verse Key
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. Father/Son
  • 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention [of you] in our prayers;
Success
    • 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;
Work
      • 4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,
Selection
        • 5 how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and [in] much assurance; even as ye know what manner of men we showed ourselves toward you for your sake.
the Holy Spirit
        • 6 And ye became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit;
the Holy Spirit
      • 7 so that ye became an ensample to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
Selection
    • 8 For from you hath sounded forth the word of the Lord, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth; so that we need not to speak anything.
Work
  • 9 For they themselves report concerning us what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how ye turned unto God from idols, to serve a living and true God,
Success
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come. Father/Son


Joseph

The Israeli/Arab Conflict - The Woodhead Commission - 1938

oleg
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:59 am

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by oleg » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:47 pm

spin wrote:For followers of this problematic passage, [1Corinthians 15:3-11], which I think is an interpolation, I have thrown together another analysis with at least one novel addition on Reddit,
At the reddit site:
spin wrote:This is precisely how one would hook an interpolation into the context... by picking up on words derived from that context.
Eight years earlier: http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... 660&page=3
spin wrote:You've got to deal with text, not people's opinions of them.
Agreed.

What follows, however, is an argument, i.e. my opinion, make of it what you will. My argument is utterly meaningless, if one denies, (I do not) that gMark ends at chapter 16, verse 8. For there exists a clear refutation of my argument, found in chapter 16, verse 17: a verse which I deny existed, and which is missing, in our most ancient, extant copies of Mark's gospel, written in the 4th or 5th century CE, and which is, I contend, an interpolation. I believe, gMark 16:17 δαιμόνια ἐκβαλοῦσιν γλώσσαις λαλήσουσιν καιναῖς is derived from 1 Corinthians 14:39, three phrases, prior to the text found at spin's Reddit comment. I believe the addition came after the fifth century CE.

The question posed at Reddit, to which, spin responded, concerned interpolation of a passage of Paul's letter, that one supposes, had been written to Paul's congregation in the city of Corinth. I have read, here, and in the archives, several authors, including, I believe, spin, who maintain that Paul's epistles had come into existence, well before gMark. I believe this passage, under discussion at Reddit, and the passage just before it, in 1 Corinthians, 14:39, represents a definitive repudiation of that long standing tradition, that Paul's epistles had come into existence prior to gMark, and that one can find, in gMark, text corresponding to Paul's letters. I maintain, the contrary. Paul took Mark's text, not the other way around.

1 Corinthians 14:39 to 15:3

ωϲτε αδελφοι μου ζηλουτε το προ φητευειν και το λαλειν μη κωλυε τε γλωϲϲαιϲ παν τα δε ευϲχημο νωϲ και κατα ταξι γινεϲθω

15:1
γνωριζω α δε υμι αδελφοι το ευαγγε λιον ο ευηγγελι ϲαμην ϋμιν ο κ(αι) παρελαβετε εν ω
2
και εϲτηκατε δι ου και ϲωζεϲθε τινι λογω ευηγγελιϲα μην υμιν ει κατε χετε εκτοϲ ει μη εικη επιϲτευϲατε
3
παρεδωκα γαρ υμι εν πρωτοιϲ ο και παρελαβον οτι χϲ απεθανεν ϋπερ των αμαρτιων ημων κατα ταϲ γραφαϲ

Note that grafas, here, "writings", could refer to anything, including gMark, but is traditionally thought to represent LXX. It is often mistranslated as "scripture".

Of significance, to me if no one else, is this word, γλωϲϲαιϲ in Paul's text. It is derived from γλωσης -- tongue.
What are the six functions of the tongue?
Licking, mastication, deglutition, respiration, oral cleansing, taste, and speech.

You will note that gMark uses the word, γλώσσης, only to refer to the tongue itself, as an object, not as a synonym for "foreign language", so called "tongues"--in this case, for the Greeks living in Corinth, that would most probably refer to Hebrew, since Paul had written that the old covenant was null and void, but could also refer to Latin, since Rome had conquered Corinth, (and utterly destroyed the city) in 146 BCE. Here are the two passages, where Mark writes tongue meaning the organ of the mouth: Mark 7:33, and Mark 7:35.

Point here is simple, it isn't just 1 Cor 15:3-11 that represents an interpolation. All those deep texts with profound analysis, and plenty of academic credentials, supporting those analytical gems, "doktrspin", cannot change the fact, that gMark doesn't write "tongues" to represent "foreign languages", as Paul does. gMark writes a much simpler text than that found in Paul, as would be expected from a preliminary essai. For gMark, but not Paul, the tongue is exactly and merely the organ found in the mouth. Tongue, for gMark, is not a synonym for "foreign languages", and therefore, gMark appeared on the scene before it had become associated as a synonym for foreign languages. Observing that gMark did not "properly' use "tongues" as he should have, someone added the text in the revised (interpolated) long ending of gMark, 16:17.

User avatar
Tenorikuma
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:40 am

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by Tenorikuma » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:02 pm

I agree that the passage is a much tighter, more focused text if that section is excised. As Ben notes, only v. 11 is attested for Marcion's version. Paul's humility ("unfit to be called an apostle") also seems uncharacteristic.

I wonder where the interpolation fits chronologically. In some ways, it seems to precede the Gospel tradition, which knows nothing of 500 witnesses. The appearance of Christ to "the Twelve" is also incompatible with Judas's absence. References to James in Paul's letters always seem a little suspicious.

On the other hand, Jesus doesn't appear to anyone except for the two women in Mark, making me suspect that the passage, if interpolated, was written later. Maybe it was post-Mark but contemporary with the other Gospels.

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1298
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:51 pm

JW:
Something somewhat related to possible chiasms are Chapter and Verse divisions. Of course the original had neither but the modern Chapter divisions do generally reflect changes in subject. The breakdown of verses by Chapter is:

1 Corinthians

1 = 31

2 = 16

3 = 23

4 = 21

5 = 13

6 = 20

7 = 40

8 = 13

9 = 27

10 = 33

11 = 34

12 = 31

13 = 13

14 = 40

15 = 58

16 = 24

Note that Chapter 15 is the longest by 18 Verses suggesting it is possible that it includes a relatively significant addition.


Joseph

Star Of David Wars

User avatar
spin
Posts: 2075
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by spin » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:42 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:There is a case to be made that verses 1-11 read as follows in the Marcionite text:

1 Now I declare to you, brothers, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain — 3b that Christ died, 4a that he was buried, 4b and that he was raised on the third day. 11b So we preach, and so you believed.

By the looks of things, this text (which is only slightly longer than the one you propose by cutting out all of 3-11) would still fit your chiasm, which I admit looks pretty good.
Yo Ben C!

I agree that working from the reconstructed Marcionite version of 1 Cor 15, almost all of the problems with the current 3-11 disappear (along with most of the text), though I'd still be sus regarding the "on the third day", a rather specific datum you'd expect to have been repeated elsewhere, if it were part of the Pauline gospel. The problem with working through a takedown version such as Tertullian (and those who followed him) is that you don't know how much is from the original and how much might be artifact in the transcription phase. We are not dealing with scribes copying texts, but theologians with tendentious aims who may not have had the training of the scribe. There are other things in the Marcionite version you've provided elsewhere that I doubt are original, based on structural evidence, eg for 1 Cor 6:14 which breaks the structural pattern of statement followed by rhetoric question ουκ οιδατε. (I should post on this, because theologians like Jerome Murphy-O'Connor have tried to explain this away with a look,-over-there argument.)

Anyway, I can't really see anything substantive against your proposition!
Ben C. Smith wrote:The extra statements concerning Christ's death, burial, and being raised are still simple assertions of faith, not based the results of eyewitness testimony, thus maintaining the following argument that you make on the Reddit page:

Hang on a second, you should be asking, hasn't Paul just demonstrated that Christ has been raised in 3-7 with eye witness accounts? Why then does he need to go on extensively with this theoretical argument on whether Christ has been raised? There is a wave of conditionals, if... if... if... if... and so on. This is rendered totally useless, had he already produced eye witness reports as to the fact Christ had been raised.

(For the record, I do not think that the protases involving the dead in general being raised should be regarded as arguments against the authenticity of 1 Corinthians 15.3-11, since they could be read as reductio ad absurdum arguments leading to a deliberate collision with the resurrection of Christ as attested by eyewitnesses. But the protases involving Christ being raised seem to feel the full force of your argument above.)
..."protasis"... That's a word I've needed for a while... along with "apodosis"...
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes

andrewcriddle
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: 1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

Post by andrewcriddle » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:26 am

spin wrote:For followers of this problematic passage, which I think is an interpolation, I have thrown together another analysis with at least one novel addition on Reddit, that of a chiasm in 1 Cor 15:1-34, which naturally only works without v.3-11. (See the above link for more detail.) Here's the basic chiasm.
A: 1-2 hold firmly to the word

  B: 12-19 If the dead are not raised

    C: 20-23 The position of Christ

      D: 24-25 Subjection

        E: 26 death destroyed

      D' 27 Subjection

    C' 28 The position of Christ

  B' 29-32 If the dead are not raised

A' 33-34 sin no more
This seems a rather solid chiasm to me. Do you agree? It focuses in v.26 on the overthrow of death, which is the result of Christ being raised, the central issue of the section.
Alternatively one can have the following chiasm
A: 1-11   The evidence for resurrection (eyewitnesses)

  B: 12-19 If the dead are not raised (theological implications)

    C: 20-23 The position of Christ

      D: 24-25 Subjection

        E: 26 death destroyed

      D' 27 Subjection

    C' 28 The position of Christ

  B' 29-34  If the dead are not raised (moral implications)

A' 35-58 The evidence for resurrection (analogy)
Andrew Criddle

Post Reply