1 Cor 15:3-11 once again

[Bernard Muller]

From http://historical-jesus.info/9.html:
a) "according to the scriptures"
b) "the twelve [disciples]"
This is very odd because:
- For the former, besides 1 Cor 15:3-4, the word 'scriptures' (plural) appears only in 'Romans' (1:2, 15:4 & 16:26), Paul's last letter. 'Scriptures' simply does not exist in the other epistles (including '2Corinthians' and 'Galatians'). The singular 'scripture' is only used in 'Galatians' (three times) & 'Romans' (four times), Paul's two last epistles, and therefore seems to be a late entry into Paul's vocabulary. Also let's notice the two 'scriptures' in 1 Cor 15:3-4 show an accusative case, not existing in 'Romans', but the same as in Lk 24:45 (previously quoted).
- For the later, Paul mentioned the members of the Church of Jerusalem several times (1 Cor 16:1, 3; 2 Cor 8:4, 13-15, 9:1, 12-15; Gal 2:1-10; Ro 15:25-26, 31), but never the twelve.
In conclusion, "the twelve"" and "according to the scriptures" were not likely written by Paul.

PS: Lk 24:45-46 "Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,"

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

From http://historical-jesus.info/9.html:
a) "according to the scriptures"
b) "the twelve [disciples]"
This is very odd because:
- For the former, besides 1 Cor 15:3-4, the word 'scriptures' (plural) appears only in 'Romans' (1:2, 15:4 & 16:26), Paul's last letter. 'Scriptures' simply does not exist in the other epistles (including '2 Corinthians' and 'Galatians'). The singular 'scripture' is only used in 'Galatians' (three times) & 'Romans' (four times), Paul's two last epistles, and therefore seems to be a late entry into Paul's vocabulary. Also let's notice the two 'scriptures' in 1 Cor 15:3-4 show an accusative case, not existing in 'Romans', but the same as in Lk 24:45 (previously quoted).

The Greek cases are 100% dependent upon the function of a word within the grammar of a sentence. To attempt to use them as they stand to determine authorship could not be more wrong. As for the singular/plural issue, you must have missed these posts: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456&p=55743#p55741 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456&start=110#p55795.

Ben.

[Bernard Muller]

to Ben,
I withdrew my remark about the case.
I read KK's post before and do not see any disagreement.
For your post, let's say I do not share the possibility you always keep in mind about the Marcionite Corpus preceding the canonical Pauline epistles and gLuke.

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

I read KK's post before and do not see any disagreement.

If her post is accurate, it may well mean that there is a very good reason for (the real) Paul to have used the plural in 15.3-4. That is the substance of the potential disagreement. The plural would no longer come across as odd.

(And, again, just to reiterate: I suspect most of 15.3-11 may be an interpolation; I just do not think, so far at least, that the linguistic arguments are good arguments for that position.)

For your post, let's say I do not share the possibility you always keep in mind about the Marcionite Corpus preceding the canonical Pauline epistles and gLuke.

I know you do not; and, for the record, I myself am not really even toying with the idea of outright Marcionite priority. I suspect the case is similar to what I have found so far with the Marcionite gospel and that of Luke: neither the Marcionite version nor the Catholic version is original; both made changes, and the case must be made with respect to each passage.

[Secret Alias]

... nice way to salvage a place for the orthodox text. Like pissing in the water so no one can drink it. The orthodox text is so obviously reactionary against the Marcionites. The question of whether something is older than Marcionite recension is an unnecessary red herring. Have we even tried to determine what Marcionism is? Too much work and distracts us (unnecessarily) from our text. Have we tried to separate Marcionite readings from the readings of the authors of the various polemic texts against them? No. Again too much work. But all of this is deemed unnecessary because as always it's all about 'us' and 'our text' rather than the truth. The orthodox texts are too long. The Marcionite texts were much shorter. Good place to start ...

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

.
1) A statistic of Greek words in the NT

Words NT	Words of Paul‘s „7“ letters	Sum of Paul‘s words	percent
138.020 words	Rom 7111 words 1 Cor 6829 words 2 Cor 4477 words Gal 2230 words Phil 1629 words 1 Thes 1481 words Phlm 335 words	24.092 words	17,46 %

2) A word in 1 Cor 15:3-11 is a weak or strong "Pauline" word

very weak …..... 0 – 4,9 % of the occurrences in the NT
weak …........... 5 – 14,9 % of the occurrences in the NT
medium …....... 15 – 19,9 % of the occurrences in the NT
strong ….......... 20 – 29,9 % of the occurrences in the NT
very strong ….... 30 – 100 % of the occurrences in the NT

I corrected the numbers of the occurrences as best as possible. The statistic is now based on biblehub

verse	very weak	weak	medium	strong	very strong	not counted
1 Cor 15:3 παραδίδωμι – delivered γὰρ – indeed, πρῶτος – first, foremost παραλαμβάνω - received ἀποθνῄσκω – died for sin, sins („ὑπὲρ“ instead of „περὶ“) γραφή - scripture		παραδίδωμι 15/120 occurrences – 12,5 % πρῶτος 6/100 occurrences – 6 %	παραλαμβάνω 8/50 occurrences – 16 %	γραφή 12/51 occurrences - 23,53 %	γάρ 372/1046 occurrences – 35,56 % ἀποθνῄσκω 40/112 occurrences - 35,71 % for … sin/sins („ὑπὲρ“ instead of „περὶ“) 2/6 occurrences (variant reading in 2Cor 5:21 not counted) – 33,33 %
1 Cor 15:4 θάπτω – buried ἐγείρω – raised τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ – phrases like „first day, second day ...		θάπτω 1/11 occurrences – 9,09 % τῇ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ τρίτῃ (searched for „first day, second day …) 2/19 occurrences - 10,53 %		ἐγείρω 37/144 occurrences - 25,69 %
1 Cor 15:5 ὁράω – see Κηφᾶς – Cephas εἶτα – then δώδεκα – twelve	δώδεκα 1/75 – 1,33 %	ὁράω 35/684 occurrences – 5,12 %		εἶτα 3/15 occurrences – 20 %	Κηφᾶς 8/9 occurrences – 88,89 %
1 Cor 15:6 ἔπειτα - thereafter ἐπάνω – over ἐφάπαξ – at once ἐξ – of and the phrase „ἐξ ὧν“ - „of whom“ nominalized πλείων – the more μένω - remain ἄρτι – now, at this time τινὲς – some κοιμάω - fall asleep		ἐπάνω 1/19 occurrences – 5,26 % μένω 13/118 occurrences – 11,02 %		ἐξ 52/236 occurrences – 22,03 % τινὲς 17/76 occurrences – 22,37 %	ἔπειτα 10/15 occurrences – 66,67 % ἐφάπαξ 2/5 occurrences – 40 % the phrase „ἐξ ὧν“ 2/4 occurrences – 50 % nominalized πλείων 7/13 occurrences - 53,85 % ἄρτι 11/36 occurrences – 30,56 % κοιμάω 9/18 occurrences – 50 %
1 Cor 15:7 ἔπειτα - thereafter εἶτα - then ὁράω – see Ἰάκωβος – James ἀπόστολος – apostle πᾶσιν – all		ὁράω 35/684 occurrences – 5,12 % Ἰάκωβος 4/42 occurrences – 9,52 %		εἶτα 3/15 occurrences – 20 % ἀπόστολος 24/80 occurrences – 29,63 %	ἔπειτα 10/15 occurrences – 66,67 % πᾶσιν 26/81 occurrences – 32,10 %
1 Cor 15:8 ἔσχατος – last πάντων – (of) all ὡσπερεὶ – as it were ἔκτρωμα – untimely-birth ὁράω – see κἀγώ - I too		ἔσχατος 5/53 occurrences – 9,43 % ὁράω 35/684 occurrences – 5,12 %		πάντων 34/135 occurrences - 25,19 % κἀγώ 24/84 occurrences 28,57 %		ὡσπερεὶ 1/1 occurrences – 100 % ἔκτρωμα 1/1 occurrences – 100 %
1 Cor 15:9 γάρ - indeed ἀπόστολος - apostle ἐγώ – a pronounced „I“ εἰμὶ - am ἐλάχιστος – least ἱκανός – fit, worthy καλέω – call διότι – because διώκω – persecute, chase ἐκκλησία – church, congregation		ἱκανός 5/39 occurrences – 12,82 %	ἐγώ 61/352 occurrences – 17,33 % εἰμὶ 22/141 occurrences – 15,60 % καλέω 27/148 occurrences 18,24 %	ἐλάχιστος 3/13 occurrences – 23,08 % ἀπόστολος 24/80 occurrences – 29,63 %	γάρ 372/1046 occurrences – 35,56 % διότι 9/23 occurrences – 39,13 % διώκω 18/45 occurrences – 40 % ἐκκλησία 43/114 occurrences – 37,72 %
1 Cor 15:10 εἰμὶ - am χάρις - grace the phrase „εἰς ἐμὲ“ - in me, toward me κενός - empty, vain περισσός - more abundant, greater πάντων - all κοπιάω - grow weary, toil the phrase „σὺν ἐμοί“ - with me			εἰμὶ 22/141 occurrences 15,60 % the phrase „εἰς ἐμὲ“ - 3/19 occurrences 15,79 %	περισσός – 5/23 occurrences 21,74 % πάντων 34/135 occurrences 25,19 %	χάρις 64/157 occurrences 40,76 % κενός 10/18 occurrences 55,56 % κοπιάω – 9/23 occurrences 39,13 % the phrase „σὺν ἐμοί“ - 7/10 occurrences 70,0 %
1 Cor 15:11 εἴτε … εἴτε – either ... or οὖν – therefore, accordingly so ἐγὼ - a pronounced „I“ ἐκεῖνος – that οὕτως – this κηρύσσω – preach, proclaim	ἐκεῖνος – 12/244 occurrences 4,92 %		οὖν – 93/502 occurrences 18,53 % ἐγώ 61/352 occurrences 17,33 %	κηρύσσω 16/61 occurrences 26,23 %	εἴτε … εἴτε 53/65 occurrences 81,54 % οὕτως – 64/205 occurrences 31,22 %

[Bernard Muller]

to Ben,

I have to say I disagree in part with your assessment.
It is especially true for the Pauline epistles, such as the combining of three epistles into one for the two Corinthians letters and Philippians, plus interpolations (most very important) in each of the seven deemed authentic Pauline epistles (except Philemon).
However I see a lot less of that in gLuke (Lk 1-2 was probably written as a separate document, but likely put in the original gospel from its beginning).
For the epistles, all these reediting and (I think) most, if not all, added interpolations were made before Marcion got to these epistles.
However your diagram does not reflect the considerable changes made before Marcion.

Original (lost)----------->Edited & added version---------->Marcion version
..........................................................I..............................
..........................................................---------->Catholic version

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

I have to say I disagree in part with your assessment.

You? Disagree with me? Really?

It is especially true for the Pauline epistles, such as the combining of three epistles into one for the two Corinthians letters and Philippians, plus interpolations (most very important) in each of the seven deemed authentic Pauline epistles (except Philemon).

....

For the epistles, all these reediting and (I think) most, if not all, added interpolations were made before Marcion got to these epistles.
However your diagram does not reflect the considerable changes made before Marcion.

Oh, that is definitely true. Absolutely. That diagram is incredibly compressed, meant only to show the general idea that neither group fully represents the original. I completely agree with you that there were probably multiple editing stages in the epistles before either the Catholic or the Marcionite editors got their hands on them.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

.
I would like to add two observations. Both are obvious, but so far not been mentioned.

1) The verses 1 Cor 15: 3-11 are connected with the surrounding verses thematically and by individual words.

1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received (παρελάβετε), in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received (παρέλαβον):

same phrase

1 Cor 15:1 “ὃ καὶ παρελάβετε” - what also you received
1 Cor 15:3 “ὃ καὶ παρέλαβον“ - what also I received

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain (κενὴ).
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach (κηρύσσομεν) and so you believed (ἐπιστεύσατε).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
12 Now if Christ is preached (κηρύσσεται) as raised from the dead, ...
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching (κήρυγμα) is in vain (κενὸν) and your faith (πίστις) is in vain (κενὴ).

If it is an interpolation, than it was done carefully.


2) There is a literary shaping. It seems that the author of the verses was interested in rhythm. The rhythm is produced by the arrangements of stressed enumerations and repetitions.

- 1 Cor 15:3-5

ὅτι ... καὶ ὅτι ... καὶ ὅτι ... καὶ ὅτι (that ... and that ... and that ... and that)
... that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 and that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared

- 1 Cor 15:5-7

εἶτα ... ἔπειτα ... ἔπειτα ... εἶτα (then ... thereafter ... thereafter ... then)
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Thereafter he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Thereafter he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

- 1 Cor 15:5-8

appearances in two rows with three items
Cephas – the twelve – 500 brothers – further explanation
James – all apostles – Paul – further explanation

- 1 Cor 15:11

εἴτε ... εἴτε ... οὕτως ... οὕτως (if-is … if-are … this ... this)
literally: If-is therefore I, if-are those, this we preach and this you believed.

Again I think that it was done carefully. The author was really interested in form and not only in content.

[Ben C. Smith]

Again I think that it was done carefully. The author was really interested in form and not only in content.

No doubt. The careful structure and rhythmic character of the piece is part of what motivates a lot of scholars to regard it as a pre-Pauline "creedal" statement of some kind.