How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospels

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outhouse
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by outhouse » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:58 pm

Ehrman does not argue for interpolation, As you quoted.

I understand Hoffmans argument, but it does not make it so, or accepted.

Later similar traditions posit the same thing that have no connection to Pauline literature.

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rakovsky
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by rakovsky » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:48 pm

This is a bit off topic, but it's a major disappointment to me and confusing how writers like Irenaeus and Jerome and Clement of Alexandria make reference to various famous writers and literature like that of Papias or various Hebrew/Nazarene "gospels" or Hegesippus and yet these writings are lost to us. The era of the Church fathers seems to start in about 150 AD with Justin, although there are a few writings before then.

But it makes me ask what happened to these writings if the Fathers had them already in the era when Christianity was no longer persecuted. Did the church destroy them because they had offensive ideas? Are they hidden in a Vatican secret Archive?

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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Tenorikuma
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by Tenorikuma » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:07 pm

Rakovsky, it's more the case that writings only survive if copies are regularly made, or if a dry climate and good hiding spot fortuitously preserve them, as with the Qumran scrolls and Nag Hammadi library. All the physical manuscripts Hegesippus had on his bookshelf are lost to us, both orthodox and heretical.

Adam
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by Adam » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:50 pm

rakovsky wrote:This is a bit off topic, but it's a major disappointment to me and confusing how writers like Irenaeus and Jerome and Clement of Alexandria make reference to various famous writers and literature like that of Papias or various Hebrew/Nazarene "gospels" or Hegesippus and yet these writings are lost to us. The era of the Church fathers seems to start in about 150 AD with Justin, although there are a few writings before then.

But it makes me ask what happened to these writings if the Fathers had them already in the era when Christianity was no longer persecuted. Did the church destroy them because they had offensive ideas? Are they hidden in a Vatican secret Archive?
Already answered in this thread June 15 (yesterday) by SA as sharpened by me, Adam. The Romans made a deal with the Christians to destroy all gospels except the standard four.

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Secret Alias
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by Secret Alias » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:42 pm

The proof that sectarian Scriptures were destroyed in the late second century by the report cited by the Samaritan chronicler Abu l-Fath, or Ibn Abi al-Hasan al-Samiri al-Danafi. This persecution was justified on the grounds that Samaritan faith at the time wasn't sufficiently monarchian. A similar concern seems to be reflected in the report of the interrogation of the Marcionite Apelles preserved in Eusebius. Apelles was roughly contemporary with the Samaritan persecution.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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MrMacSon
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by MrMacSon » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:56 pm

rakovsky wrote:This is a bit off topic, but it's a major disappointment to me and confusing how writers like Irenaeus and Jerome and Clement of Alexandria make reference to various famous writers and literature like that of Papias or various Hebrew/Nazarene "gospels" or Hegesippus and yet these writings are lost to us. The era of the Church fathers seems to start in about 150 AD with Justin, although there are a few writings before then.

But
it makes me ask what happened to these writings if the Fathers had them already in the era when Christianity was no longer persecuted. Did the church destroy them because they had offensive ideas? Are they hidden in a Vatican secret Archive?
Tenorikuma wrote:Rakovsky, it's more the case that writings only survive if copies are regularly made, or if a dry climate and good hiding spot fortuitously preserve them, as with the Qumran scrolls and Nag Hammadi library. All the physical manuscripts Hegesippus had on his bookshelf are lost to us, both orthodox and heretical.
I'd say a combination of things happened, with different scenarios in different locations.

We know the great libraries of Alexandra, Ephesus, and other places, and their texts, were destroyed - sometimes in more than one attack.

The Corpus Hermeticum was written by unknown authors in Egypt sometime before the end of the third century C.E. but had, supposedly, been mistakenly dated to a much earlier period by Church officials (and everyone else) up until the 15th century. They only survived in eastern Byzantine libraries, and only because they were seen as an early precursor to Christianity. See http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 802#p50802

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rakovsky
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by rakovsky » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:32 am

Thanks for your answers. I would prefer to think that copies of early Christian writings from before Justin's DIALOGUE have remained in archives someplace, waiting to be found by scholars. Occasionally we have turned up fragments of gospels like the gospel of Peter, although that was not quite in a normal library.

A relevant question is whether the early Christians would have preserved those things. Normally, it would seem like the answer is YES to at least some things, like the writings of Papias. It seems that there should be more writings by respected orthodox canonical authors whose wriitngs matched what the Church continued to teach as official. Such writings would be seen as valuable for preserving in the church.

There is alot of Jesus' life we want more info on, like his time before His baptism, and more details on what the appearances of him two or more days after the burial were like.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

andrewcriddle
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by andrewcriddle » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:05 pm

Secret Alias wrote:I am quite interested in this suggestion Andrew. Could you explain this to me. As always you continue to surprise.
Mark 15:21-24
21καὶ ἀγγαρεύουσιν παράγοντά τινα Σίμωνα Κυρηναῖον ἐρχόμενον ἀπ’ ἀγροῦ, τὸν πατέρα Ἀλεξάνδρου καὶ Ῥούφου, ἵνα ἄρῃ τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ. 22Καὶ φέρουσιν αὐτὸν ἐπὶ τὸν Γολγοθᾶν τόπον, ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον Κρανίου Τόπος. 23καὶ ἐδίδουν αὐτῷ ἐσμυρνισμένον οἶνον· ὃς δὲ οὐκ ἔλαβεν.  24Καὶ σταυροῦσιν αὐτὸν καὶ διαμερίζονται τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτοῦ βάλλοντες κλῆρον ἐπ’ αὐτὰ* τίς τί ἄρῃ.
21 And they compelled a passer by, Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross. 22 And they brought him (Simon ?) to the place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull). 23 And they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. 24 And they crucified him (Simon ?) and divided his garments among them, casting lots for them, to decide what each should take.
Theoretically this can be read as an account in which the soldiers end up crucifying Simon instead of Jesus.

Andrew Criddle

iskander
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Re: How the evangelists understood the nature of their gospe

Post by iskander » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:37 pm

As in The life of Brian
Monty Python's Life of Brian [1979] scene -- Crucifixion Party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCDPwMpYDGs

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