What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Ken Olson wrote:Wow! That was fast work. It seems to lack mention of Jews as well, either as followers or accusers.
Right, it does lack that. It seems quite paraphrastic.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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Ken Olson wrote:David Levenson and Thomas Martin recently published a critical text of the Testimonium from the Latin Antiquities in the Journal for the Study of Judaism 45 (2014) 1-79.
BTW, for anyone interested, several articles on the Testimonium are available on this forum, including this one:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1495&p=34233
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toejam
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by toejam »

My opinion? I don't really have a confident one. I don't buy the attempted "fixed" reconstructions that scholars like Vermes, Ehrman, John Meier, etc. have attempted to justify. I *suspect* that paragraph is basically a re-write over something more extensive (and probably negative) about the historical Jesus. But who knows...
My study list: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bignell/judeo-christian-origins-bibliography/851830651507208
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Secret Alias »

Has anyone checked the Yosef Walda Koryon?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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DCHindley
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote:Has anyone checked the Yosef Walda Koryon?
So, Mr. "Alias" (if that's your real name), what does Ethiopic Pseudo-Josephus/Josippon have to say re the TF, or the other folks in question (John the Baptist & James the Just)? :popcorn:

DCH
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DCHindley
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by DCHindley »

Ken Olson wrote:Whoops! I wrote:
(1) You might add the sixth century Latin translation of the Antiquities commissioned by Cassiodorus, which is what most later Latin writers (like Peter Comestor) used. David Levenson and Thomas Martin recently published a critical text of the Testimonium from the Latin Antiquities in the Journal for the Study of Judaism 45 (2014) 1-79.
I should have mentioned that Cassiodorus' group actually re-used the Latin translation of the Testimonium from Rufinus' translation of Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History (which Ben already has in his compilation).
Hello, Ken!

"Cassidorus" was on another, longer, list I gleaned from either one of Whiston's excurses, or Eisler's Messiah Jesus":

• TF allusion Cassidorus Hist. Tripartit. e Sozomeno.
• John the Baptist in Ant 18 Cassidorus Chron. Alex. p. 514.
• Josephus is one source about length of Jesus preaching Cassidorus Chron. Alex. p. 526, 527.
• Jesus' & James the Just's death tied to War 5 Cassidorus Chron. Alex. p. 584, 587.1

Where one might find the Greek or even a good English translations of these passages I do not know. If this is Whiston, then he is likely referring to page numbers of the prime Edition/Collation of his day (1737), which may be far different than how we would define chapters & sections today.

That last one, and possibly the 2nd from last one, I think might relate to Pseudo Hegesippus or the Josippon. Apparently, folks tend to confuse these two, then as well as now.

DCH (still compiling)
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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DCHindley wrote: DCH (still compiling)
Does the C in DCH stand for Compiling? :P
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Ken Olson
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Ken Olson »

David Hindley wrote:
"Cassidorus" was on another, longer, list I gleaned from either one of Whiston's excurses, or Eisler's Messiah Jesus":

• TF allusion Cassidorus Hist. Tripartit. e Sozomeno.
• John the Baptist in Ant 18 Cassidorus Chron. Alex. p. 514.
• Josephus is one source about length of Jesus preaching Cassidorus Chron. Alex. p. 526, 527.
• Jesus' & James the Just's death tied to War 5 Cassidorus Chron. Alex. p. 584, 587.1
These are from Whiston. The first is a Latin translation of Sozomen, which you already have in the original Greek. The Chron. Alex. (not Cassiodorus, but following it in Whiston's list) is another name for the Chronicon Paschale. The Wikipedia page has external links for Dindorf's 1832 edition (the James passage is in v. 1 p. 463):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Paschale

The account of James' death probably comes from the summary of Hegesippus in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History.

KO
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DCHindley
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by DCHindley »

Ken Olson wrote:David Hindley wrote:
"Cassidorus" was on another, longer, list I gleaned from either one of Whiston's excurses, or Eisler's Messiah Jesus":

• TF allusion Cassiodorus Hist. Tripartit. e Sozomeno.
• John the Baptist in Ant 18 Cassidorus Chron. Alex. [= Chronicon Paschale] p. 514.
• Josephus is one source about length of Jesus preaching Cassidorus Chron. Alex. [= Chronicon Paschale] p. 526, 527.
• Jesus' & James the Just's death tied to War 5 Cassidorus Chron. Alex. [= Chronicon Paschale] p. 584, 587.1
These are from Whiston.

The first is a Latin translation of Sozomen, which you already have in the original Greek.
The Chron. Alex. (not Cassiodorus, but following it in Whiston's list) is another name for the Chronicon Paschale.
The Wikipedia page has external links for Dindorf's 1832 edition (the James passage is in v. 1 p. 463):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Paschale

The account of James' death probably comes from the summary of Hegesippus in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History.
Thanks again, Ken!

Well, looks like my "spell check" didn't work. :oops: That abbreviated "Cassidorus" for "Cassiodours" popped up a flag the other day, but I hadn't yet found time to figure out where I have made mistakes, like the one where I imagined that Cassiodorus was the author of some "Chron. Alex."

While a lot of these little details have probably been commented upon on this and previous incarnations of this list over the years, I just cannot remember them all. Luckily, I recently downloaded Dindorf's two volumes, and had a file with Unicode Greek of the Paschal Chronicle, but have not yet found an English translation, or didn't like the ones I did see. I guess there is no public domain ET of the whole work available at archive.org.

Re the Hist. Tripartit. e Sozomeno, why does he attribute the citation to Cassiodorus? Is Cassiodorus the Latin translator of Sozomen's Hist. Tripartite?

As for that Latin Translation of Sozomen, we seek out the Latin translation of Eusebius for tips as to the Greek text he used, if different than the standard Greek text, don't we? Then again, they may not be based on a significantly different Greek text, and thus a dead end.

I like the way you obviously have all this at your command, having spent so much time researching your thesis. More common aficionados of these matters, like me, must slowly plod along ...

DCH
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes. I find it quite puzzling that this seems to be the Josippon but if they are the same work I don't quite get how this same work ended up in two corners of the world around the same time. I am told for instance that the Ethiopian text has some relationship to the Arabic translation of Josephus made c. 1063 CE https://books.google.com/books?id=jRMWP ... 22&f=false. The Arabic translation of the Hebrew Yosippon was supposedly translated in the fourteenth century into Ethiopic and entitled the Zena Ayhud (History of the Jews) or the Kitab Yusuf ibn Kuryun (Yosippon). However this source the history book was already prominent in the 13th century https://books.google.com/books?id=DtIRb ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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