What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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DCHindley
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

Post by DCHindley »

Bernard Muller wrote:Thanks DCH,
I have to say your theory is better and more documented than others on the same topic.

But I have objections on each of your points and I hope I'll have time to write a post about them.
It's just an explanation, for better or for worse.

I am going to post the passages, Greek & English, from the various sources, to illustrate the complexity of the problem at hand, and allow everyone evaluate the adequacy of the various solutions that have been proposed.

We'll see how this fares.

DCH
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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Spin had reminded us of his own solution to the problem.

It had been a while, but here is a summary he posted on this list in 2014, which is partly concerned with Ant 20:199-200:
spin, Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:52 am wrote:
Peter Kirby wrote:It's hard to understand Origen not using any kind of Testimonium from Josephus, even if only to refute it.
I thought I'd mapped the process in detail [apparently, on II (lost forever), FRDB (Peter has his search engine), and RatSkep (2011)].

1. Origen works from memory.
2. After mentioning JtB [[Contra Celsum 1.47a]] he goes on to a passage regarding Jesus [[C.C. 1.47d]].
3. The indications on this passage point to his using Hegesippus, a source he confused with Josephus (a known confusing in antiquity)
4. Origen gleans the notion of the death of James [[C.C. 1.47b; 2.13; Commentary on Matthew 13.55]] in the source pointing to the downfall of Jerusalem (certainly nowhere in Josephus)
5. He writes up his recollection on James as regarding something not from Hegesippus, but mistakenly from Josephus.
6. A scribe adds marginal comment [in AJ [[20:200]]] reflecting Origen's note.
7. A later scribe takes this [comment now in AJ] as an omission and inserts it into the text, causing discourse analysis anomalies.
8. Eusebius [[History of the Church 2.23.3-21?]] sees no connection between Origen's comment regarding Josephus and AJ 20.200, citing them both as distinct passages, while assuming Origen correctly cites some unknown passage from Josephus. (This means the connection between Origen and AJ 20.200 is relatively modern.)
I added the passages I think spin is alluding to in double brackets.

Regarding Eusebius, the following passage he obtained from a lost work of Clement (the 7th book of the Hypotyposeis), more completely/accurately related, he asserts, by Hegesippus, and strengthened the second author's statement by citing an otherwise unattested passage in Josephus:
3) The manner of the death of James has been already indicated by the above mentioned words of Clement [which he cites more fully at Church History 2.1.3-6], who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes as follows:
4) James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the just by all from the times of the Lord to the present day, for there were many that bore the name of James. He was holy from the womb of his mother.
5) He drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.
6) He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and he was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God and asking forgiveness for the people.
7) Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the just, and oblias, which in Greek signifies a bulwark of the people, and justice, in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him.
8) Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the memoirs, asked him: What is the gate of Jesus? And he replied that it was the savior.
9) On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in the coming of one to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.
10) Therefore, when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said: We entreat you, restrain the people, for they have gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat you to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in you. For we bear you witness, as do all the people, that you are just and that you do not respect persons.
11) Persuade, therefore, the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in you. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position you might be clearly seen, and that your words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the gentiles also, have come together on account of the Passover.
12) The aforesaid scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple and cried out to him and said: Just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us what the gate of Jesus is.
13) And he answered with a loud voice: Why do you ask me concerning Jesus, the son of man? He himself sits in heaven at the right hand of the great power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven!
14) And, when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said: Hosanna to the son of David, these same scribes and Pharisees said again to one another: We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.
15) And they cried out, saying: Oh, oh, the just man is also in error! And they fulfilled the scripture written in Isaiah: Let us take away the just man because he is troublesome to us; therefore they shall eat the fruit of their works.
16) So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other: Let us stone James the just. And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said: I entreat you, Lord God our father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
17) And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying: Cease! What are you doing? The just one is praying for you!
18) And one of them, one of the fullers, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.
19) These things Hegesippus at any rate also relates at length along with Clement. And James was so marvelous a one, and so acclaimed among all the rest for his justice, that the sensible ones of the Jews opined that this was the cause of the siege of Jerusalem, which happened immediately after his martyrdom for no other reason than their daring act against him.
20) Josephus, therefore, did not refuse to attest thereto in writing, by the words following: “These miseries befell the Jews by way of revenge for James the Just, who was the brother of Jesus that was called Christ, on this account, that they had slain him who was a most righteous person.”
Immediately after this Eusebius cites Jos Ant 20:200 as a description of James' death:
21) The same Josephus declares the manner of his death in the twentieth book of the Antiquities, in these words: “Cæsar sent Albinus into Judea to be procurator, when he had heard that Festus was dead. Now Ananus junior, who, as we said, had been admitted to the high priesthood, was in temper bold and daring in an extraordinary manner. He was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are more savage in judgment than the other Jews, as we have already signified. Since, therefore, this was the character of Ananus, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority,] because Festus was dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembles the Sanhedrim of judges, and brings before them James the brother of Jesus. who was called Christ, and some others [of his companions,] and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and those who were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done. They also went to the king [Agrippa,] desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done could not be justified,” &c.
So, yes, Eusebius does not connect the statement about James the Just being the reason for the destruction of Jerusalem with the passage in Josephus 20:200 that he regards as an account of James' death. I'm not sure what this proves, though, as Eusebius may not know how Clement, Hegesippus, or Origen for that matter, came up with their statements.

Edit: That statement by Clement, passed on to us by Eusebius at Church history 2.1.3-6, seems to be in a side bar comment by Eusebius:

3) But Clement in the sixth book of his Hypotyposeis writes as follows: For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of the savior, as if also preferred by the Lord, did not strive for glory, but rather elected James the just to be bishop of Jerusalem.
4) And the same [Clement] in the seventh book of the same work says also these things concerning him: The Lord after the resurrection delivered knowledge to James the just and to John and to Peter, and they delivered it to the rest of the apostles, and the rest of the apostles to the seventy, of whom Barnabas was one.
5) But there were two Jameses, one being the just one, who was cast down from the pinnacle and was beaten unto death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded.
6) Paul indeed makes mention of the same just one, writing: But I did not see any other of the apostles except James the brother of the Lord


However, a side-bar comment (corresponding sections 5-6 above) does not explain how he could make a mistake and attributed his own comment to Clement, unless he is citing a source for this, other than Clement's Hypotyposeis, which added comments (5-6). This may also have been Hegesippus.


A more full list of passages about James will have to follow later.

DCH
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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spin wrote:The indications on this passage point to his using Hegesippus, a source he confused with Josephus (a known confusion in antiquity)
I have never understood the urge to find explanations for Origen's statement that do not involve this confusion between Hegesippus and Josephus. It has always seemed to me to be by far the most likely explanation.
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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Ben C. Smith wrote:
spin wrote:The indications on this passage point to his using Hegesippus, a source he confused with Josephus (a known confusion in antiquity)
I have never understood the urge to find explanations for Origen's statement that do not involve this confusion between Hegesippus and Josephus. It has always seemed to me to be by far the most likely explanation.
Well, I suppose it is possible, but isn't the confusion between Josephus & Hegesippus associated with the names found in mss of the Latin paraphrase of Josephus' War?* Isn't the paraphrase 4th century in origin, with the misattribution sometime between 4th & 9th century? This seems later than Origen's time. I may have missed it, but there may also be other unambiguous evidence of confusion from earlier times.

Also, this alone does not explain the origin of either Clement's or Hegesippus' statement(s) to this effect? After all, Josephus does indeed state whose death he thought was the cause of the destruction, and it was Ananus, the same figure who is the topic of Ant 20:200, which just happens to mention a brother of "Jesus, the being-said Christ, James by name." I think that this goes beyond mere coincidence, and must be factored into any explanation. Just to say that Origin read Hegesippus and misattributed what he read about James to Josephus, does not explain how Hegesippus came to say it.

Spin (and you) may well be right about Origen not having read Josephus but Hegesippus, but any scribal glosses introduced into the text seem more natural to place before Hegesippus made his error, not after, unless Hegesippus just mined sources about other folks (Ananus and Jesus his 2nd in command in War 4?) and made up his account of James the Just pretty much whole cloth.

DCH

*Per Albert Bell (1987)
[Ps-Hegesippus is] a five-book account of the destruction of Jerualem written in Latin by an anonymous Christian late in the fourth century. Sometimes styled an “adaptation” of Josephus’ work, this history blends material from Josephus (both the War and the Antiquities) and from other sources to create “substantially an independent book."
...
At some time between the fourth and early ninth centuries, … the name Hegesippus becomes associated with the five-book “adaptation” of Josephus that is the subject of this study. The name Hegesippus was certainly not chosen by the author. It appears in no citation before the mid-ninth century and in no manuscript, except as an emendation, before the ninth century. The medieval writers who cite him seem to have thought they were using the Hegesippus known to Eusebius. A number of manuscripts of the work contain a gloss to the effect that “Ambrosius episcopus de graeco transtulit.”
Per Ken A Olson (2004)
Pseudo-Hegesippus is a name used by scholarly convention for the anonymous author of the c. 370 Latin work De Excidio Urbis Hierosolymitanae ("On the Destruction of the City of Jerusalem;" Latin text in CSEL 66) that has come down to us with some works by Ambrose, and is sometimes (though rarely these days) attributed to him. The De Excidio is a Christian history of the Jewish war, based on Josephus' book, but with an extreme anti-Jewish tendency.
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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DCHindley wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
spin wrote:The indications on this passage point to his using Hegesippus, a source he confused with Josephus (a known confusion in antiquity)
I have never understood the urge to find explanations for Origen's statement that do not involve this confusion between Hegesippus and Josephus. It has always seemed to me to be by far the most likely explanation.
Well, I suppose it is possible, but isn't the confusion between Josephus & Hegesippus associated with the names found in mss of the Latin paraphrase of Josephus' War?* Isn't the paraphrase 4th century in origin, with the misattribution sometime between 4th & 9th century?
The Chronicon Paschale also appears to confuse Josephus with Hegesippus: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2075&p=47399#p47399. The key to the argument from confusion is not (necessarily) that church fathers before Origen had already confused the two names; rather, it is simply that the names were able to be confused, as evidenced by pseudo-Hegesippus and by the Chronicon Paschale. It is an argument primarily from language, not from history.
Also, this alone does not explain the origin of either Clement's or Hegesippus' statement(s) to this effect?
I suspect Clement got his statement from Hegesippus. As for Hegesippus himself, what is there to explain? Whether he got the germ of the idea from Josephus or not, his account is highly legendary and a lot more developed than that of Josephus. He most certainly did not get it all from Josephus.
After all, Josephus does indeed state whose death he thought was the cause of the destruction, and it was Ananus, the same figure who is the topic of Ant 20:200, which just happens to mention a brother of "Jesus, the being-said Christ, James by name."
Are you assuming that this phrase is original to Josephus? I for one am not assuming that. I am less sure of it being an interpolation than I am that the Testimonium is, but I cannot assume it to be original. The jury is still out for me.
I think that this goes beyond mere coincidence, and must be factored into any explanation.
I agree.
Just to say that Origin read Hegesippus and misattributed what he read about James to Josephus, does not explain how Hegesippus came to say it.
That is true. But the topic was, after all, Origen's statement, not Hegesippus'.
Spin (and you) may well be right about Origen not having read Josephus but Hegesippus....
I think Origen read both, not just one or the other.
...but any scribal glosses introduced into the text seem more natural to place before Hegesippus made his error, not after, unless Hegesippus just mined sources about other folks (Ananus and Jesus his 2nd in command in War 4?) and made up his account of James the Just pretty much whole cloth.
That "unless" does not daunt me, though I doubt Hegesippus himself has to be making it all up. I think he recorded a legend; and legends grow. How much he himself added to the legend is up for grabs.
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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As I have mentioned over a million times at this forum, Clement identifies a chronicle written by "Josephus the Jew" which is dated to 147/148 CE. The same chronicle was used by a number of other Church Fathers.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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Ben C. Smith wrote:
spin wrote:The indications on this passage point to his using Hegesippus, a source he confused with Josephus (a known confusion in antiquity)
I have never understood the urge to find explanations for Origen's statement that do not involve this confusion between Hegesippus and Josephus. It has always seemed to me to be by far the most likely explanation.
Does Origen ever clearly demonstrate knowledge of Hegesippus ?
I don't think he does but I might be wrong.

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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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andrewcriddle wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote:
spin wrote:The indications on this passage point to his using Hegesippus, a source he confused with Josephus (a known confusion in antiquity)
I have never understood the urge to find explanations for Origen's statement that do not involve this confusion between Hegesippus and Josephus. It has always seemed to me to be by far the most likely explanation.
Does Origen ever clearly demonstrate knowledge of Hegesippus ?
I don't think he does but I might be wrong.
Not that I know of, except here, and not by name. But it seems like Clement uses Hegesippus for his passage (preserved in Eusebius) on James' death, and a priori it seems likely that what was available to Clement of Alexandria was available to Origen of Alexandria. It is also a matter of me being impressed by the seeming coincidence:
  1. Hegesippus and Josephus seem to have been confusable in antiquity.
  2. Origen quotes something as from Josephus which we actually find in Hegesippus.
  3. Clement, Origen's predecessor, also mentions something which we find in Hegesippus.
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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I am in the process of compiling the promised list of Greek-English evidence from ancient citations relevant to Jesus, James and John the Baptist, as they now stood or may have stood in any of Josephus's works, real or imagined, so bear with me.

Just to keep the discussion going while I do that, here is a table I fabricated from a hodge-podge of sources (some public domain and some are things available on the Internet) comparing the TF as found in Eusebius, Agapius, Jerome, Michael, and Pseudo-Hegesippus:

[/b]
TF = Eus. H.E.1.11.7b-8
Agapius
Jerome (On Famous Men, 13)
Michael Chronicle
Pseudo-Hegesippus 2.12
1 About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. At the same time there was Jesus, a wise man, In these times there was a wise man named Jesus, a. That there was at that time a wise man,
2 if indeed one ought to call him a man, - if indeed it is proper to say that he was a man; if it is fitting for us to call him a man. b. if, says he, it be lawful to have him called a man;
3 for he was a doer of wonderful works, His conduct was good, for he was an accomplisher of marvelous works For he was a worker of glorious deeds c. a doer of wonderful works,
4 a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. and (he) was known to be virtuous. and a teacher of those who freely receive true things; and a teacher of truth.
5 He won over many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. And many people from the Jews and other nations became his disciples. he also had very many followers, as many from the Jews as from the gentiles, Many from among the Jews and the nations became his disciples. g. and hath penetrated among all sorts of men; nor does there remain any nation in the Roman world, which continues strangers to his religion.
6 He was the Messiah; - and he was believed to be Christ. He was thought to be the messiah,
7 When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, Pilate When by the envy of our principal ones Pilate but not according to the testimony of the principal men of our nation. Because of this, Pilate
8 had condemned him to the cross, condemned him to be crucified and die. had affixed him to a cross, condemned him to the cross and he died.
9 those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. those who had first loved him nevertheless persevered; For those who had loved him did not cease to love him.
10 for he appeared to them alive again the third day, They reported that he had appeared to them three days after the crucifixion, and that he was alive; for he appeared to them on the third day living; He appeared to them alive after three days. d. who appeared to his disciples after the third day from his death alive again,
11 - accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah - -
12 as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders. many things, both these and other marvelous things, are in the songs of the prophets who made predictions about him. For the prophets of God had spoken with regard to him of such marvelous things. e. according to the writings of the prophets, who foretold these, and innumerable other miraculous events concerning him;
13 and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day. - Even until today the race of Christians, having obtained the word from him, has not failed. And the people of the Christians, named after him, has not disappeared till this day. f. from whom began the congregation of Christians,

As you can see, these English translations vary considerably, assuming same underlying Greek words.

DCH
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Re: What's your Opinion on Testimonium Flavianum

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And more ...

Flavius Josephus ben Matthias, Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3 (63-64) ca 95 CE.
Eusebius of Caesarea, Demonstration of the Gospel 3.5.104b-106 (started ca 313, completed later).
Eusebius of Caesarea, History of the Church 1.11.7-8 (ca. 323-324 CE). ET of Greek.
Eusebius of Caesarea, Theophany 5.43b-44.
104b And nothing of any kind {prevents us} from making use of the testimony of Josephus from among the Hebrews, who in the eighteenth [book] of the Antiquity of the Jews, while reporting the things about the times of Pilate, makes mention of our savior in these [words]: 7 After going through these things concerning John, he [Josephus] also makes mention of our savior in the same record of the historian [Antiquities] as follows: 43b There is nevertheless nothing to prohibit our availing ourselves even the more abundantly of the Hebrew witness Josephus, who in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities of the Jews, writing the things that belonged to the times of Pilate, commemorates our savior in these words:
a) 63 And there is about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is necessary to say that he is a man; a) 105 And there is about that time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is necessary to say that he is a man; a) 7 … And there is about this time Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is necessary to say that he is a man; a) 44 At that time there was a wise man named Jesus, if it be fitting to call him a man;
b) for he was a doer of miraculous works, a teacher of men who receive true things with pleasure, b) for he was a doer of miraculous works, a teacher of men who revere true things, b) for he was a doer of miraculous works, a teacher of men who receive true things with pleasure, b) for he was the worker of wonderful deeds and a teacher of men, of those who in truth accept grace,
c) and many Jews, and also many of the Greek element, he led to himself; c) and many of the Jewish element, and also many of the Greek element, he led to himself; c) and many of the Jews, and also many from the Greek element, he led to himself; c) and he brought together many of the Jews and many of the pagans;
d) this man was the Christ. d) this man was the Christ. d) this man was the Christ. d) and he was the messiah.
e) 64 And, when on the accusation of the first men among us Pilate had condemned him to a cross, e) And, when on the accusation of the rulers among us Pilate had condemned him to a cross, e) 8 And, when on the accusation of the first men among us Pilate had condemned him to a cross, e) And when, according to the example of the chief principal men among ourselves, Pilate put a cross on his head,
f) those who had first loved him did not cease; for he appeared to them on the third day living again, f) those who had first loved him did not cease; 106 for he appeared to them on the third day living again, f) those who had first loved him did not cease; for he appeared to them on the third day living again, f) those who formerly loved him were not silent; for he appeared to them on the third day alive,
g) the divine prophets having said both these things and myriads of other wonders concerning him. g) the divine prophets having said both these things and myriads of other things concerning him, g) the divine prophets having said both these things and myriads of other wonders concerning him. g) the divine prophets having said this and many other things concerning him.
h) And even until now the tribe of Christians (τὸ φῦλον), named from this man, has not been lacking. h) whence even until now the tribe of Christians (τὸ φῦλον), from this man, has not been lacking. h) And even until now the tribe of Christians (τὸ φῦλον), named from this man, has not been lacking. h) From then until now the sect of the Christians has not been wanting.

DCH
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