JW:Marginal_Juice wrote:For those who don't know Testimonium Flavianum or TF is a brief passage in First century Jewish author Josephus's monumental book "Antiquities of the Jews", for some Christians its allegedly a independent testimony of Jesus's Miracles. While Scholarly opinion on this passage is Varied and only very few consider it to be wholly Authentic, A scholar of Antiquity Louis Feldman who surveyed the relevant literature from 1937 to 1980 in Josephus and Modern Scholarship. Feldman noted that 4 scholars regarded the Testimonium Flavianum as entirely genuine, 6 as mostly genuine, 20 accept it with some interpolations, 9 with several interpolations, and 13 regard it as being totally an interpolation.
So I created a little Poll to know what the Forum members here think of it, please participate in it and share your views.
And for me personally the Passage's extremely short length, Dense Christian character, Its Narrative similarity with a passage of gLuke, its vocabulary similarity to Eusebius's other writings, Church father Origen's failure to mention any part of it (while he Extensively used the works of Josephus) and Overall flimsy language ('Principled man among us', 'ten thousand other wonderful things') which is in stark contrast with Josephus's writing, So taking everything into account its a total interpolation for me.
Also Keep in mind Poll is only for authenticity of TF not for historicity of Jesus.
My summary of the evidence that Eusebius was responsible for the TF:
Say It Aint So Joe. Test. Flav. Eusebius Author/Discover
CIRCUMSTANTIAL
1) Discovery
1 - No evidence for the TF before Eusebius
- 1) General silence - expectation that if the TF existed it would have been used due to its importance to Christianity.
- 1 - Probably most, if not all, Church Fathers would have heard of/been familiar with Josephus as he was the official historian of 1st century Israel where they thought Jesus was from.
2 - For Church Fathers with a minimum of extant writings, most refer to/quote from Josephus and he is actually the most referred to non-Christian author of the early Church.
3 - After Eusebius some major Church authors still don't refer to the TF. Presumably because their copies don't have it.
- ca.140 CE Justin Martyr
- For the Cave, consider that Justin was a philosopher in
Rome and his interests were:
1) Jesus
2) 1st century Israel
3) Arguing with Pagan and Jewish philosophers
The related question should be:
Why wouldn't Justin be familiar with Josephus?
I also wonder if the Cave is even willing to concede that
extant Church Father writings prove the Fathers could
read and write. Maybe they just dictated, or maybe they
became blind or maybe they were temporarily sight-
impared while Josephus was in front of them.
ca.180 CE Irenaeus - uses Josephus
ca.190 CE Clement of Alexandria - uses Josephus
ca.200 CE Tertullian - uses Josephus
ca.200 CE Minucius Felix - uses Josephus
ca.210 CE Hippolytus - uses Josephus
ca.220 CE Sextus Julius Africanus - uses Josephus
ca.230 CE Origen - uses Josephus
ca.240 CE Cyprian
ca.270 CE Anatolius - uses Josephus
ca.290 CE Arnobius
ca.300 CE Methodius - uses Josephus
ca.300 CE Lactantius
Of the 14 Fathers here who show no awareness of the TF 10 show use of Josephus. In addition a decent argument can be made that a few of the 4 who show no clear reference to Josephus do have some decent parallels. Comically, Roger Pearse started this list in order to demonstrate that the Fathers in general would have no interest in Josephus and ends up demonstrating that the conclusion he disputes is correct.
Note that it's not just the quantity of Patristics who show no awareness of the TF up to E (Eusebius) that is remarkable but also the quantity of years, over 200, with no awareness of the TF. - For the Cave, consider that Justin was a philosopher in
- 1 - Probably most, if not all, Church Fathers would have heard of/been familiar with Josephus as he was the official historian of 1st century Israel where they thought Jesus was from.
2) Familiarity - Parallels to Eusebius' own Adversus Hieroclem.
3) Language - The key phrases are generally Eusebian and not Josephan.
4) Context - The context of the TF is contrary to Josephus and parallels Eusebius' Demonstratio Evangelica.
5) Manuscript - Relative uniformity of the TF post Eusebian.
6) Lack of any coherent argument for originality.
7) Opportunity
- 1 - Eusebius was a manufacturer of texts. He was known to have produced Bibles at a high level and had a Scriptorium at Caesarea.
2 - Around this time there was no wise man named Jesus but there was a Western Emperor who would have protected Eusebius in general and specifically against charges of tampering. As self-anointed expert Brad Watson concludes, there are no coincidences.
- 1 - Eusebius has a general credibility problem regarding sources. We have numerous instances where the problem is somewhere in between creating/editing/hiding the source. See my related Award winning Thread:
Was Eusebius A Truth Challenged Advocate For Jesus? - The Argument Resurrected
Last and least, authority confesses to us that the TF is likely not original.
10) Possible Source
The main criticism of Eusebius is that he uncritically accepts sources that promote Christianity. He is an Advocate for Christianity and not a Judge. My own specific guess as to the Origin of the TF is Eusebius' take on Origen's related commentary, parallels in [Red]:
Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book X)
Presentation of quality parallels here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=618&start=40#p13090
Eusebius takes literary license to assume that there is an implication that per Origen Josephus wrote directly about Jesus and that Origen's surrounding information was fair game as to what to include. This also helps explain why Jerome has "thought to be" instead of "was" the Christ. Original Eusebius also had "thought to be" because that was the implication from Origen.
Another possibility is that there were comments in the margin of Origen's copy of Josephus either put there by Origen or someone in between that Eusebius inherited from Origen at Caesarea and Eusebius added them into the text. For those who need points sharply explained, the best literary clue before Eusebius' TF is Origen and physically Origen/Eusebius were at the exact same scene of the crime.
Joseph
The Strange Chapter Of Dr. Jewkyll And Mr. Hymn - Day 2