NT/apocrypha and its knowledge of the Gospels

[neilgodfrey]

Paul even admits there was other gospel.

For Paul the word 'gospel' meant the message preached and not a written text.

[neilgodfrey]

I said FTSOA. My point is that estimating how much Paul believed about the live of Jesus but never mentioned in his surviving letters is impossible unless one accepts the authenticity of the surviving texts. (If this is a genuinely illegitimate assumption then we simply can't estimate how much Paul believed about the life of Jesus but never explicitly said. )

On your specific points:
Tertullian deliberately argues on the basis of Marcion's own text. Since Irenaeus knew our text of Romans 1:3 it is unlikely that it was unknown to Tertullian.
If one accepts that Paul regarded the institution of the Eucharist as an event occurring upon our earth then it seems clearly related to the Gospel narratives. The alternative (that Paul regarded the institution as occurring somewher in Heaven) has IMO serious problems but I doubt whether this thread is the place to discuss them.

Andrew Criddle

Yes, there are arguments both ways. (The next step would be to engage with each of the arguments to test them, see which are ad hoc, etc.) Thus it is an overstatement, at the least, to suggest the case for interpolations is an arbitrary one and it is not the best method to just assume a pristine text on that basis.

I know one comes across this sort of reasoning among the scholars in discussions and their writings. Ideology seems too often to trump informed and valid methods.

[MrMacSon]

Paul even admits there was other gospel.

For Paul the word 'gospel' meant the message preached and not a written text.

Probably, but it may mean texts long lost; or, if some or the Pauline texts are Marcionite or Marcionite period, there may have been some written texts (perhaps similar to the texts we know about today).

[MrMacSon]

That's right. There are no apocryphal writings from the first century that mention any details from the earthly life of Jesus, to my knowledge.

I think 1 Clement, the Didache, Barnabas' epistle and Revelation, all of them [supposedly] written before the end of the 1st century, include gospels material, as explained here:

• http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html#1clement (for 1 Clement, the Didache & Barnabas' epistle)
  
  and here for Revelation: http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html, then search on >> gmatthew << (short read)

• Here is what Paul said about the historical Jesus:
  http://historical-jesus.info/6.html (short webpage)
  That would point to only one person during his generation:
  http://historical-jesus.info/7.html (short webpage)

Hebrews (pre-gospels epistle) has:

• “For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.” Heb 7:14 YLT

and

• "how shall we escape, having neglected so great salvation? which a beginning receiving -- to be spoken through the Lord -- by those having heard was confirmed to us," Heb 2:3 YLT

I wonder if 'Lord' is an entity other than Jesus in those Hebrews passages


re the Didache -

• There is no mention of the name 'Jesus' in the surviving text of the Didache. There is!
  
  • You say
    
    • "Generally speaking, all gospel-like material in the Didache have parallels in GMatthew" and
      
      "each of the gospel parallel in the Didache appears either in all the Synoptics, or in both GLuke & GMatthew only ("Q"), or solely in GMatthew"
      
      with one exception: Ch.16 <=> Lk12:35-40 YLT
    You also say "with the wording extracted from GMatthew, "Son" was substituted by "God" in the Didache. It looks the author did not like Jesus being called "the Son of David": that would be most understandable from an Ebionite's viewpoint!"
  It is possible that
  
  • the Didache originated at the same time as the Synoptics; or,
    
    that the Synoptics derived some of their information from texts like the Didache; or
    
    the authors of the Synoptics and the author/s of the Didache developed their theology from another theology or another source

re

and here for Revelation: http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html, then search on >> gmatthew << (short read)

As an aside, interestingly both of those gMatthew passages have 'the Son of man', but 'the Son of Man' is not repeated in the corresponding Revelations passages.
.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon

There is no mention of the name 'Jesus' in the surviving text of the Didache.

I counted 3 occurrences of "thy servant Jesus" (ch. 9 (2) & 10). There is a fourth "Jesus" as "Jesus Christ" (ch. 9) but I think it is an interpolation.
Reference: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

to MrMacSon

There is no mention of the name 'Jesus' in the surviving text of the Didache.

I counted 3 occurrences of "thy servant Jesus" (ch. 9 (2) & 10). There is a fourth "Jesus" as "Jesus Christ" (ch. 9) but I think it is an interpolation.
Reference: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... berts.html

Cheers. I was wrong (I think I was thinking of the remaining texts of Papias but, then, what was I thinking)

[MrMacSon]

I still contend that

• It is possible that
  
  • the Didache originated at the same time as the Synoptics; or,
    
    that the Synoptics derived some of their information from texts like the Didache; or
    
    the authors of the Synoptics and the author/s of the Didache developed their theology from another theology or another source

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,
Why don't you work on these possibilities and prove that at least one of them is a probability?

Cordially, Bernard

[Giuseppe]

The alternative (that Paul regarded the institution as occurring somewher in Heaven) has IMO serious problems but I doubt whether this thread is the place to discuss them.

Where can I find a full list of these problems about a celestial Eucharist in Paul?

Thanks in advance.

[andrewcriddle]

The alternative (that Paul regarded the institution as occurring somewher in Heaven) has IMO serious problems but I doubt whether this thread is the place to discuss them.

Where can I find a full list of these problems about a celestial Eucharist in Paul?

Thanks in advance.

This thread may possibly be relevant
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2005

Andrew Criddle