Mark 7.4 and the dipping of cups.

[Ben C. Smith]

fwiw, from Kasper Bro Larsen's "Mark 7:1-23: A Pauline Halakah?" in Mark and Paul, Comparative Essays Part II. For and Against Pauline Influence on Mark (2014) -- p. 172:

Hand·washing before meals ls not a biblical requirement and was according to E. P. Sanders not practised in Second Temple Judaism, let alone by the Pharisees. The rabbinic material, which probably describes later practices, discusses hand-washing for different purposes of ritual purity but not as a general obligalion at meals (see E. P. Sanders, Judalsm: Practice and Belief, 63 BCE·66 CE (London: SCM, 1992, 437-38). For recent discussions, however, see Eyal Regev, "'Pure Individualism: The ldea of Non·Priestly Purity in Ancient Judaism.”JSJ 31 (2000): 176 - 202 and Yair' Furstenberg, "Defilement Penetrating the Body: A New Understanding of Contamination in Mark 7.15." NTS 54 (2008): 176 - 200. lf hand·washlng practices appear for the first time in sources from the Diaspora (Arist. 305...6; Sib. Or. 3.591- 3; cf. Sanders 1992, 223 - 4; 43n. it may be an indication of a Diaspora setting for Matk 7:1-4a

Thanks, Neil. My initial inquiry was about Mark 7.4b, but I agree: if anachronism can be demonstrated in 3 or 4a, the entire unit probably succumbs.

Also, of course, any differential between Palestine itself and the Diaspora will be highly relevant. As always, though, I am interested in what the primary sources say.

[MrMacSon]

fwiw, from Kasper Bro Larsen's "Mark 7:1-23: A Pauline Halakah?" in Mark and Paul, Comparative Essays Part II. For and Against Pauline Influence on Mark (2014) -- p. 172:

Hand-washing before meals is not a biblical requirement and was, according to E. P. Sanders, not practised in Second Temple Judaism, let alone by the Pharisees. The rabbinic material, which probably describes later practices, discusses hand-washing for different purposes of ritual purity, but not as a general obligation at meals (see E. P. Sanders, Judalsm: Practice and Belief, 63 BCE-66 CE (London: SCM, 1992, 437-38). For recent discussions, however, see Eyal Regev, "'Pure Individualism: The ldea of Non·Priestly Purity in Ancient Judaism.”JSJ 31 (2000): 176 - 202 and Yair' Furstenberg, "Defilement Penetrating the Body: A New Understanding of Contamination in Mark 7.15" NTS 54 (2008): 176 - 200). If hand-washing practices appear for the first time in sources from the Diaspora (Arist. 305...6; Sib. Or. 3.591-3; cf. Sanders 1992, 223-4; 43n) it may be an indication of a Diaspora setting1 for Mark 7:1-4a

• ...any differential between Palestine itself and the Diaspora will be highly relevant.

1 Do we have any indication of where such a 'Diaspora setting' may be?

[Secret Alias]

It is amazing to see critics who want to see anachronisms find them just as the pious finds proofs of authenticity from the same pages. Hand washing may only have 'ritualized' contextualization from the rabbinic period ... but that's when our information about the Jews chiefly survives. If we had a scientific interest in these things it would be natural to check Judaism's 'sister' culture and low and behold we find hand washing too. https://books.google.com/books?id=VOLOf ... ng&f=false At least some of you have never lived in a primitive culture. In cultures where the ass is wiped with the hand and food is eaten with those same hands in shared meal setting, hand washing is a necessary fact of life!

[neilgodfrey]

It is amazing to see critics who want to see anachronisms find them just as the pious finds proofs of authenticity from the same pages. Hand washing may only have 'ritualized' contextualization from the rabbinic period ... but that's when our information about the Jews chiefly survives. If we had a scientific interest in these things it would be natural to check Judaism's 'sister' culture and low and behold we find hand washing too. https://books.google.com/books?id=VOLOf ... ng&f=false At least some of you have never lived in a primitive culture. In cultures where the ass is wiped with the hand and food is eaten with those same hands in shared meal setting, hand washing is a necessary fact of life!

The Mark 7 narrative is not about Samaritans and their customs.

[iskander]

Mark 7 is ' kosher'
ARCHIVES: HILCHOS NETILAS YADAYIM
" The primary reason for requiring this washing is that in times of old (and again shortly when Mashiach arrives) before Kohanim were allowed to partake of Terumah they had to wash their hands to ensure they weren’t impure. In order for them to get in the habit of doing so, the Chazal instituted this washing for all of Klal Yisroel, not just for Kohanim.
Even though we don’t have a Bais HaMikdash now, and are all “impure”, the requirement for Netilas Yadayim was kept in force, so we should be in the habit of doing so as soon as the Bais HaMikdash is rebuilt (May it be speedily and in our days)"

http://halachafortodaycom.blogspot.co.u ... dayim.html

[Ben C. Smith]

fwiw, from Kasper Bro Larsen's "Mark 7:1-23: A Pauline Halakah?" in Mark and Paul, Comparative Essays Part II. For and Against Pauline Influence on Mark (2014) -- p. 172:

.... lf hand·washlng practices appear for the first time in sources from the Diaspora (Arist. 305...6; Sib. Or. 3.591- 3; cf. Sanders 1992, 223 - 4; 43n. it may be an indication of a Diaspora setting for Matk 7:1-4a

I am guessing the first reference is to this passage from the Syriac version of the Apology of Aristides 14:

Nevertheless they [the Jews] too erred from true knowledge. And in their imagination they conceive that it is God they serve; whereas by their mode of observance it is to the angels and not to God that their service is rendered:--as when they celebrate sabbaths and the beginning of the months, and feasts of unleavened bread, and a great fast; and fasting and circumcision and the purification of meats, which things, however, they do not observe perfectly.

The second reference, in context, runs as follows:

724 And there shall be again a holy race 725 Of godly men who, keeping to the counsels And mind of the Most High, shall honor much The great God's temple with drink-offerings, Burnt-offerings, and holy hecatombs, With sacrifices of fat bulls, choice rams, 730 Firstlings of sheep and the fat thighs of lambs, Sacredly offering whole burnt-offerings On the great altar. And in righteousness, Having obtained the law of the Most High, Blessed shall they dwell in cities and rich fields. 735 And prophets shall be set on high for them By the Immortal, bringing great delight Unto all mortals. For to them alone The mighty God his gracious counsel gave And faith and noblest thought within their hearts; 740 They have not by vain things been led astray, Nor pay they honor to the works of men Made of gold, brass, silver, and ivory, Nor statues of dead gods of wood and stone [Besmeared clay, figures of the painter's art], 745 And all that empty-minded mortals will; But they lift up their pure arms unto heaven, Rise from the couch at daybreak, always hands With water cleanse [ἁγνίζοντες ὕδατι], and honor only Him Who is immortal and who ever rules, 750 And then their parents; and above all men Do they respect the lawful marriage-bed; And they have not base intercourse with boys, As do Phoenicians, Latins, and Egyptians And spacious Greece, and nations many more 755 Of Persians and Galatians and all Asia, Transgressing the immortal God's pure law Which they were under.

[Secret Alias]

I realize that it's not "about" the Samaritans but where Samaritan and Jews agree it probably goes back to something shared and very old

[JoeWallack]

JW:
According to Neusner the most relevant Talmud excerpt regarding ancient Jewish rules for washing in connection with eating is:

Judaic Law from Jesus to the Mishnah:

Page 265 "Mishnah-tractate Hagigah 2:5-3:3":

http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Chagigah.2?lang=en

"and each interpreted as best he could."[JW]

The passage distinguishes between the cleaness required for eating unconsecrated food, food that has been designated as tithe or priestly rations ("heave-offering") and food that is in the status of Holy Things.
...
these standards are of course hierarchical, with the most stringent rules (the details of which we may bypass) required for Holy Things, less stringent ones for priestly rations, and the least stringent for unconsecrated food.

Nuesner is the Minimalist here and his bitter rival is Sanders who unlike Nuesner projects broader historical conclusions from this subject in the Talmud. It is strange to see a major author such as Nuesner write with the same type of attitude toward his rival as Godfree/McGrath/Carrier.

Nuesner's minimalist position is that all we know from the Talmud here is what was written after the time period described primarily about purity rules based on House Hillel and Shammai. I would project from skimming the Talmud here that "Mark's" Jesus has overstated the quality and quantity of ritual cleaning in Jesus' supposed time. I also project that after the Temple was destroyed the level of ritual increased at the same time confessing that my supporting level of evidence has decreased since these excerpts describe rules when the Temple existed.

Looking at the Talmudic ritual cleaning rules here it is easy to understand the Christians making fun of them such as describing the washing of hands with the fists.


Joseph

[iskander]

This video explains the conflict between those for whom kavanah (1) is the supreme factor and, on the opposite side, those for whom the exact observance of each mitzvah is necessary .
1- Kavanah or kavana (also pronounced /kaˈvonə/ by some Ashkenazi Jews) (כַּוָּנָה; in Biblical Hebrew kawwānā), plural kavanot or kavanos, (Intention or "direction of the heart") is the mindset often described as necessary for Jewish rituals (mitzvot).

This video explains it very well, in about the first 10 minutes .see attached file.
http://www.torahcafe.com/rabbi-naftali- ... 2b4b2.html