Codex Boernerianus and Romans 1.1b-5a.

[Ben C. Smith]

to Ben,

My argument is that the lexicon was using the English word "determine" in its primary sense. (This should not be an argument over English words, though; Paul wrote in Greek, not in English. What is a good example of the Greek word in question being clearly used in your preferred sense?)

from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Do(ri%2Fzw a meaning for 'orizw' would be "2.to determine for oneself, to get a thing determined, Dem."

That is for the middle voice. (The middle voice very often carries a reflexive sense in Greek: "to do something to/for oneself.") The verb in Romans 1.4 is in the passive voice, not the middle.

middlevoicehorizw.jpg (162.7 KiB) Viewed 2585 times

[Bernard Muller]

to Ben,
What about:

II.to mark out by boundaries, mark out, Hdt., Soph.;

as in the YLT translation: "who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,"

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

What about:

II.to mark out by boundaries, mark out, Hdt., Soph.;

as in the YLT translation: "who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,"

Well, I went through all of those LXX verses in which it means to mark out a boundary, and none of them seem to envision a boundary that was already there but is just now being recognized as such. The "marking off" always seems to be a constitutive thing.

[Bernard Muller]

to Ben,

Well, I went through all of those LXX verses in which it means to mark out a boundary, and none of them seem to envision a boundary that was already there but is just now being recognized as such.

I am not so sure:

From Proverb 18:18: "marks out, with his lips, all evil"
Rearranging Romans 1:4:
"marked out, by the rising again from the dead, Son of God ..."

marks out --> marked out
with his lips --> by the rising again from the dead
all evil --> Son of God

Cordially, Bernard

[Ben C. Smith]

to Ben,

Well, I went through all of those LXX verses in which it means to mark out a boundary, and none of them seem to envision a boundary that was already there but is just now being recognized as such.

I am not so sure:

From Proverb 18:18: "marks out, with his lips, all evil"
Rearranging Romans 1:4:
"marked out, by the rising again from the dead, Son of God ..."

marks out --> marked out
with his lips --> by the rising again from the dead
all evil --> Son of God

I specifically stated in my summary that I was not sure about this verse, either. (This is not one of the verses that deals with marking out a boundary. Something else is going on here.)

Is that the best evidence? A verse that neither of us is sure about?

[Ben C. Smith]

to Ben,

Well, I went through all of those LXX verses in which it means to mark out a boundary, and none of them seem to envision a boundary that was already there but is just now being recognized as such.

I am not so sure:

From Proverb 18:18: "marks out, with his lips, all evil"
Rearranging Romans 1:4:
"marked out, by the rising again from the dead, Son of God ..."

marks out --> marked out
with his lips --> by the rising again from the dead
all evil --> Son of God

I specifically stated in my summary that I was not sure about this verse, either. (This is not one of the verses that deals with marking out a boundary. Something else is going on here.)

Is that the best evidence? A verse that neither of us is sure about?

Bernard, I am returning to this dormant thread in the interest of full disclosure, since I have recently found an instance of ὁρίζω which may reflect the meaning of the word which you were trying to find in it. In Antiquities 10.11.7 §267 Josephus writes that Daniel prophetically "determined the season" (καιρὸν ὥριζεν); that is, he predicted not just what would happen but also when it would happen. The verb ὥριζεν here can, I think, be read as suggesting that the seasons have already been appointed (by God), and that Daniel prophetically determined/discovered what they were. This usage, if correct, is at least close to what you were looking for, I believe, with respect to the usage of that same word in Romans 1.4.

This is still only one instance against dozens of instances to the contrary, though of course there may be more (I have not searched outside of the Bible itself, with the exception of the sample texts listed by LSJ). I am still leaning toward Romans 1.1b-5a being an interpolation, though I am not interested in resuming the debate over it at this time, but I thought you might be interested in this finding.