The Date for Judas Interpreter of Daniel

[Secret Alias]

Clement knows the right date for the destruction of the temple. In the previous paragraph he cites Josephus the Jew saying seventy seven years separated the destruction from the 10th year of Antoninus. That's correct. How on earth can he screw up the span between the destruction and the death of Commodus which was only 45 years later - and be off by 8 years! That doesn't make sense to me. The Stromata was a serious work. My only solution is that Clement didn't write or calculate these dates.

[andrewcriddle]

Clement knows the right date for the destruction of the temple. In the previous paragraph he cites Josephus the Jew saying seventy seven years separated the destruction from the 10th year of Antoninus. That's correct. How on earth can he screw up the span between the destruction and the death of Commodus which was only 45 years later - and be off by 8 years! That doesn't make sense to me. The Stromata was a serious work. My only solution is that Clement didn't write or calculate these dates.

There is always a real possibility of manuscript corruption in chronological passages.

Andrew Criddle

[Secret Alias]

But another question which I find odd about Stromata 1. Why does Clement cite a plurality of dates and chronologies rather than establish one in particular or at least decide upon the right answer after presenting the plurality of views. The dates for Jesus's birth and death are particularly perplexing given their importance. Surely he had an opinion or better yet the Alexandrian Church had an opinion as to when Jesus lived and died. It's one thing to cite differences of opinion before laying down the right opinion. But I think Clement begins by speaking of 'certainty' with regards to the dates for Jesus and then in the next breath he contradicts himself completely by basically citing a vast array of opinion all of which contradict one another. Something fishy.

[Secret Alias]

Like these statements, all from the Stromata:

There were in all, taking in the duration of the captivity down to the restoration of the people, from the birth of Moses, one thousand one hundred and fifty-five years, six months, and ten days; and from the reign of David, according to some, four hundred and fifty-two; more correctly, five hundred and seventy-two years, six months, and ten days.

So:

from the birth of Moses to the return from Exile 1155.5 years and 10 days
reign of David to the return from Exile 572.5 and ten days
but the reign of David to the return from Exile ACCORDING TO SOME 452

Clement then (or a later editor) has added 120.5 and 10 days to the number of years from the reign of David to the return from Exile. Why isn't the Moses calculation corrected? Why only the reign of David date?

A little earlier he writes:

From Moses, then, to the age of Solomon, as some say, are five hundred and ninety-five years, and as others, five hundred and seventy-six. And if you count, along with the four hundred and fifty years from Joshua to David, the forty years of the rule of Moses, and the other eighty years of Moses's life previous to the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt, you will make up the sum in all of six hundred and ten years. But our chronology will run more correctly, if to the five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months till the death of David, you add the hundred and twenty years of Moses and the forty years of Solomon. For you will make up in all, down to the death of Solomon, six hundred and eighty-three years and seven months.

From Moses to Solomon (some say) 595
From Moses to Solomon (some say) 576
Then he calculates:
Moses before his 'rule' 80 years (= previous to the Exodus)
Moses years of 'rule' 40 (from 80 til he was 120)
beginning of Joshua's rule to Solomon 450
"the sum of all years Moses to Solomon" = 610.

But then again he goes 'more correctly still'
Joshua until the death of David 523 and 7 months
add 120 for the years of Moses
plus 40 years of Solomon = 683 and seven months.

In each case he assumes (rightly) an immediately transfer of 'rule' from Moses to Joshua. But where does he get his 610 year figure initially? If Moses was 80 at the Exodus then shouldn't we just add 80 to 450 to get 630?

[Secret Alias]

I think I found the smoking gun which demonstrates that this whole section was written by a later hand. But before I demonstrate it let's wonder why anyone would write a chronology in the manner it appears in the Stromata LET ALONE A CHRONOLOGY WITHIN ANOTHER BOOK! Here's where we start:

It is worth our while, having reached this point, to examine the dates of the other prophets among the Hebrews who succeeded Moses. After the close of Moses's life, Joshua succeeded to the leadership of the people, and he, after warring for sixty-five years, rested in the good land other five-and-twenty. As the book of Joshua relates, the above mentioned man was the successor of Moses twenty-seven years. Then the Hebrews having sinned, were delivered to Chusachar king of Mesopotamia for eight years, as the book of Judges mentions. But having afterwards besought the Lord, they receive for leader Gothoniel, the younger brother of Caleb, of the tribe of Judah, who, having slain the king of Mesopotamia, ruled over the people forty years in succession. And having again sinned, they were delivered into the hands of Æglom king of the Moabites for eighteen years. But on their repentance, Aod, a man who had equal use of both hands, of the tribe of Ephraim, was their leader for eighty years. It was he that dispatched Æglom. On the death of Aod, and on their sinning again, they were delivered into the hand of Jabim king of Canaan twenty years. After him Deborah the wife of Lapidoth, of the tribe of Ephraim, prophesied; and Ozias the son of Rhiesu was high priest. At her instance Barak the son of Bener, of the tribe of Naphtali, commanding the army, having joined battle with Sisera, Jabim's commander-in-chief, conquered him. And after that Deborah ruled, judging the people forty years. On her death, the people having again sinned, were delivered into the hands of the Midianites seven years. After these events, Gideon, of the tribe of Manasseh, the son of Joas, having fought with his three hundred men, and killed a hundred and twenty thousand, ruled forty years; after whom the son of Ahimelech, three years. He was succeeded by Boleas, the son of Bedan, the son of Charran, of the tribe of Ephraim, who ruled twenty-three years. After whom, the people having sinned again, were delivered to the Ammonites eighteen years; and on their repentance were commanded by Jephtha the Gileadite, of the tribe of Manasseh; and he ruled six years. After whom, Abatthan of Bethlehem, of the tribe of Juda, ruled seven years. Then Ebron the Zebulonite, eight years. Then Eglom of Ephraim, eight years. Some add to the seven years of Abatthan the eight of Ebrom. And after him, the people having again transgressed, came under the power of the foreigners, the Philistines, for forty years. But on their returning [to God], they were led by Samson, of the tribe of Dan, who conquered the foreigners in battle. He ruled twenty years. And after him, there being no governor, Eli the priest judged the people for forty years. He was succeeded by Samuel the prophet; contemporaneously with whom Saul reigned, who held sway for twenty-seven years. He anointed David. Samuel died two years before Saul, while Abimelech was high priest. He anointed Saul as king, who was the first that bore regal sway over Israel after the judges; the whole duration of whom, down to Saul, was four hundred and sixty-three years and seven months.

Then in the first book of Kings there are twenty years of Saul, during which he reigned after he was renovated. And after the death of Saul, David the son of Jesse, of the tribe of Judah, reigned next in Hebron, forty years, as is contained in the second book of Kings. And Abiathar the son of Abimelech, of the kindred of Eli, was high priest. In his time Gad and Nathan prophesied. From Joshua the son of Nun, then, till David received the kingdom, there intervene, according to some, four hundred and fifty years. But, as the chronology set forth shows, five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months are comprehended till the death of David.

And after this Solomon the son of David reigned forty years. Under him Nathan continued to prophesy, who also exhorted him respecting the building of the temple. Achias of Shilo also prophesied. And both the kings, David and Solomon, were prophets. And Sadoc the high priest was the first who ministered in the temple which Solomon built, being the eighth from Aaron, the first high priest. From Moses, then, to the age of Solomon, as some say, are five hundred and ninety-five years, and as others, five hundred and seventy-six.

So Clement assumes:

2 year gap between Joshua's 'rule' succeeding Moses and the entry into the Land and 25 years in Israel = 27
ruled by king of Mesopotamia = 8
Gothoniel = 40
king of Moab = 18
Aod = 80
king of Canaan = 20
Deborah = 40
Midianites = 7
Gideom = 40
the son of Abimelech = 3
Boleas = 23
Ammonites = 18
Jeptha = 6
Abathan = 7
Philistnes = 40
Samson = 20
Eli the priest = 40
Samuel = 27
From Samuel to Saul = 2

= four hundred and sixty-three years and seven months

Saul = 20
David = 40

Then he writes:

From Joshua the son of Nun, then, till David received the kingdom, there intervene, according to some, four hundred and fifty years. But, as the chronology set forth shows, five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months are comprehended till the death of David.

Solomon = 40

From Moses, then, to the age of Solomon, as some say, are five hundred and ninety-five years, and as others, five hundred and seventy-six.

But then he continues back to where we started:

And if you count, along with the four hundred and fifty years from Joshua to David, the forty years of the rule of Moses, and the other eighty years of Moses's life previous to the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt, you will make up the sum in all of six hundred and ten years. But our chronology will run more correctly, if to the five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months till the death of David, you add the hundred and twenty years of Moses and the forty years of Solomon. For you will make up in all, down to the death of Solomon, six hundred and eighty-three years and seven months.

This is the smoking gun I was taking about. It most puzzling. The line "and if you count along with the four hundred and fifty years from Joshua to David ..." is completely out of step with what immediately precedes it. After all, he has just spent a number of paragraphs adding the number of years from Joshua to David as something other than 450. Indeed he calculates in his extended and entirely unnecessary calculation that from Joshua to Saul was "four hundred and sixty-three years and seven months" and furthermore that Saul ruled for "twenty" more - so according to this long and totally unnecessary calculation Joshua to David was four hundred eighty three years and seven months" rather than 450.

Indeed then all that we would expect to find in the original Stromata was:

And if you count, along with the four hundred and fifty years from Joshua to David, the forty years of the rule of Moses, and the other eighty years of Moses's life previous to the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt, you will make up the sum in all of six hundred and ten years.

All that comes before it was an extended calculation by a secondary hand to correct something that seemed 'wrong' about Clement's text and so too the words that come after:

But our chronology will run more correctly, if to the five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months till the death of David, you add the hundred and twenty years of Moses and the forty years of Solomon. For you will make up in all, down to the death of Solomon, six hundred and eighty-three years and seven months.

Now we see that in reality Clement was using a pre-existent chronology which determined that the years from Moses to David as 610 and likely 650 up until Solomon.

[Secret Alias]

Yes we can I think refine the rewriting a little further. Notice that Clement begins by saying that he will list the prophets who succeeded Moses but in the chronology before our smoking gun most of the section has nothing to do with 'prophets' of any kind:

It is worth our while, having reached this point, to examine the dates of the other prophets among the Hebrews who succeeded Moses. After the close of Moses's life, Joshua succeeded to the leadership of the people , and he, after warring for sixty-five years, rested in the good land other five-and-twenty. As the book of Joshua relates, the above mentioned man was the successor of Moses twenty-seven years. Then the Hebrews having sinned, were delivered to Chusachar king of Mesopotamia for eight years, as the book of Judges mentions. But having afterwards besought the Lord, they receive for leader Gothoniel, the younger brother of Caleb, of the tribe of Judah, who, having slain the king of Mesopotamia, ruled over the people forty years in succession. And having again sinned, they were delivered into the hands of Æglom king of the Moabites for eighteen years. But on their repentance, Aod, a man who had equal use of both hands, of the tribe of Ephraim, was their leader for eighty years. It was he that dispatched Æglom. On the death of Aod, and on their sinning again, they were delivered into the hand of Jabim king of Canaan twenty years. After him Deborah the wife of Lapidoth, of the tribe of Ephraim, prophesied; and Ozias the son of Rhiesu was high priest. At her instance Barak the son of Bener, of the tribe of Naphtali, commanding the army, having joined battle with Sisera, Jabim's commander-in-chief, conquered him. And after that Deborah ruled, judging the people forty years. On her death, the people having again sinned, were delivered into the hands of the Midianites seven years. After these events, Gideon, of the tribe of Manasseh, the son of Joas, having fought with his three hundred men, and killed a hundred and twenty thousand, ruled forty years; after whom the son of Ahimelech, three years. He was succeeded by Boleas, the son of Bedan, the son of Charran, of the tribe of Ephraim, who ruled twenty-three years. After whom, the people having sinned again, were delivered to the Ammonites eighteen years; and on their repentance were commanded by Jephtha the Gileadite, of the tribe of Manasseh; and he ruled six years. After whom, Abatthan of Bethlehem, of the tribe of Juda, ruled seven years. Then Ebron the Zebulonite, eight years. Then Eglom of Ephraim, eight years. Some add to the seven years of Abatthan the eight of Ebrom. And after him, the people having again transgressed, came under the power of the foreigners, the Philistines, for forty years. But on their returning [to God], they were led by Samson, of the tribe of Dan, who conquered the foreigners in battle. He ruled twenty years. And after him, there being no governor, Eli the priest judged the people for forty years. He was succeeded by Samuel the prophet; contemporaneously with whom Saul reigned, who held sway for twenty-seven years. He anointed David. Samuel died two years before Saul, while Abimelech was high priest. He anointed Saul as king, who was the first that bore regal sway over Israel after the judges; the whole duration of whom, down to Saul, was four hundred and sixty-three years and seven months.

Then in the first book of Kings there are twenty years of Saul, during which he reigned after he was renovated. And after the death of Saul, David the son of Jesse, of the tribe of Judah, reigned next in Hebron, forty years, as is contained in the second book of Kings. And Abiathar the son of Abimelech, of the kindred of Eli, was high priest. In his time Gad and Nathan prophesied. From Joshua the son of Nun, then, till David received the kingdom, there intervene, according to some, four hundred and fifty years. But, as the chronology set forth shows, five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months are comprehended till the death of David.

And after this Solomon the son of David reigned forty years. Under him Nathan continued to prophesy, who also exhorted him respecting the building of the temple. Achias of Shilo also prophesied. And both the kings, David and Solomon, were prophets. And Sadoc the high priest was the first who ministered in the temple which Solomon built, being the eighth from Aaron, the first high priest. From Moses, then, to the age of Solomon, as some say, are five hundred and ninety-five years, and as others, five hundred and seventy-six.

And if you count, along with the four hundred and fifty years from Joshua to David, the forty years of the rule of Moses, and the other eighty years of Moses's life previous to the exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt, you will make up the sum in all of six hundred and ten years. But our chronology will run more correctly, if to the five hundred and twenty-three years and seven months till the death of David, you add the hundred and twenty years of Moses and the forty years of Solomon. For you will make up in all, down to the death of Solomon, six hundred and eighty-three years and seven months.

Hiram gave his daughter to Solomon about the time of the arrival of Menelaus in Phœnicia, after the capture of Troy, as is said by Menander of Pergamus, and Lætus in The Phœnicia. And after Solomon, Roboam his son reigned for seventeen years; and Abimelech the son of Sadoc was high priest. In his reign, the kingdom being divided, Jeroboam, of the tribe of Ephraim, the servant of Solomon, reigned in Samaria; and Achias the Shilonite continued to prophesy; also Samæas the son of Amame, and he who came from Judah to Jeroboam, and prophesied against the altar. After him his son Abijam, twenty-three years; and likewise his son Asaman. The last, in his old age, was diseased in his feet; and in his reign prophesied Jehu the son of Ananias.

After him Jehosaphat his son reigned twenty-five years. In his reign prophesied Elias the Thesbite, and Michæas the son of Jebla, and Abdias the son of Ananias. And in the time of Michæas there was also the false prophet Zedekias, the son of Chonaan. These were followed by the reign of Joram the son of Jehosaphat, for eight years; during whose time prophesied Elias; and after Elias, Elisæus the son of Saphat. In his reign the people in Samaria ate doves' dung and their own children. The period of Jehosaphat extends from the close of the third book of Kings to the fourth. And in the reign of Joram, Elias was translated, and Elisæus the son of Saphat commenced prophesying, and prophesied for six years, being forty years old.

Then Ochozias reigned a year. In his time Elisæus continued to prophesy, and along with him Adadonæus. After him the mother of Ozias, Gotholia, reigned eight years, having slain the children of her brother. For she was of the family of Ahab. But the sister of Ozias, Josabæa, stole Joas the son of Ozias, and invested him afterwards with the kingdom. And in the time of this Gotholia, Elisæus was still prophesying. And after her reigned, as I said before, Joash, rescued by Josabæa the wife of Jodæ the high priest, and lived in all forty years.

There are comprised, then, from Solomon to the death of Elisæus the prophet, as some say, one hundred and five years; according to others, one hundred and two; and, as the chronology before us shows, from the reign of Solomon an hundred and eighty-one.

[Secret Alias]

I think we have discovered an important bit of information - the writings of Clement were interpolated by a later hand. But why? Part of the answer comes in what immediately follows where after a long discussion of the kings that followed we end up with the number of years from Moses to the Captivity. Not surprisingly the schizophrenic patter becomes reintroduced whenever we get to numbers:

There are then from the birth of Moses till this captivity nine hundred and seventy-two years; but according to strict chronological accuracy, one thousand and eighty-five, six months, ten days. From the reign of David to the captivity by the Chaldeans, four hundred and fifty-two years and six months; but as the accuracy we have observed in reference to dates makes out, four hundred and eighty-two and six months ten days.

So going back to our original discovery we find:

1. From Joshua to David = 450
2. From David to the Captivity = 452.5

As such in order to arrive at these numbers from Moses to Joshua, Moses would have been 70 when Joshua reigned. Moses lived 120 years. But these are contradicted seemingly by the previous statement that Joshua's rule to David (= 450) needs to have Moses 120 years plus Solomon's rule to equal 610. There is still something not quite right here but we're getting closer.

[Secret Alias]

I've solved the problem I think. Where does the number 972 come from.

1. From Joshua to David = 450
2. From David to the Captivity = 452.5
3. Captivity to Exile = 70
= 972

It's the only way that makes sense. He might have added 3 years. Then 490 years to the destruction of the temple so either 1462 or 1465.

[Secret Alias]

I have also noticed that the spelling of Moses fluctuates in the Stromata from Μωσῆς to Μωϋσῆς. I think this is also significant for our thesis that the text has been thoroughly interpolated. Why would the spelling of a name fluctuate like this. For instance when the Julius Cassian theme of Moses being as old as Inachos we find the Μωσῆς spelling.

Ζάλευκός τε ὁ Λοκρὸς πρῶτος ἱστόρηται νόμους θέσθαι, οἳ δὲ Μίνω τὸν ∆ιὸς ἐπὶ Λυγκέως. οὗτος μετὰ ∆αναὸν γίνεται ἑνδεκάτῃ ἄνωθεν ἀπὸ Ἰνάχου καὶ Μωσέως γενεᾷ, ὡς ὀλίγον ὑποβάντες δείξομεν.

Zeleucus the Locrian was reported to have been the first to have framed laws (in writing). Others say that it was Menos the son of Zeus, in the time of Lynceus. He comes after Danaus, in the eleventh generation from Inachus and Moses; as we shall show a little further on. (Strom 1.16.79.5 - 6)

But elsewhere it is Μωϋσῆς

Προτερεῖν ἄρα Μωυσῆς ἀποδείκνυται τῆς μὲν ∆ιονύσου ἀποθεώσεως ἔτη ἑξακόσια τέσσαρα, εἴ γε τῆς Περσέως βασιλείας τῷ τριακοστῷ δευτέρῳ ἔτει
ἐκθεοῦται, ὥς φησιν Ἀπολλόδωρος ἐν τοῖς Χρονικοῖς (Strom 1.21.105.2)

Often times the misspelling appears side by side in the same paragraph in a section we have argued was interpolated:

Ἄξιον δὴ ἐνταῦθα γενομένους διερευνῆσαι καὶ τῶν ἄλλων τῶν μετὰ Μωσέα παρὰ τοῖς Ἑβραίοις προφητῶν τοὺς χρόνους. (argued to be authentic) Μετὰ τὴν Μωυσέως τοῦ βίου τελευτὴν διαδέχεται τὴν ἡγεμονίαν τοῦ λαοῦ Ἰησοῦς πολεμῶν μὲν ἔτη ξεʹ, ἐν δὲ τῇ γῇ τῇ ἀγαθῇ ἄλλα πέντε καὶ εἴκοσι ἀναπαυσάμενος. ὡς δὲ τὸ βιβλίον τοῦ Ἰησοῦ περιέχει, διεδέξατο τὸν Μωυσέα ὁ προειρημένος ἀνὴρ ἔτη κζʹ. ἔπειτα ἁμαρτόντες οἱ Ἑβραῖοι παραδίδονται Χουσαχὰρ βασιλεῖ Μεσοποταμίας ἔτεσιν ὀκτώ, ὡς ἡ τῶν Κριτῶν ἱστορεῖ βίβλος

It is worth our while, having reached this point, to examine the dates of the other prophets among the Hebrews who succeeded Moses. After the close of Moses's life, Joshua succeeded to the leadership of the people, and he, after warring for sixty-five years, rested in the good land other five-and-twenty. As the book of Joshua relates, the above mentioned man was the successor of Moses twenty-seven years. (Strom 1.21.109.1 - 5)

I am thinking the theory that a second hand rewrote parts of the chronological section is now absolutely proved!

How can this be accounted for if the same person was copying the same manuscript?

[Secret Alias]

Let's start with the beginning of chapter 21 - the chronology section of the Stromata. It begins with Μωϋσῆς but quickly transitions to Μωσέως:

On the plagiarizing of the dogmas of the philosophers from the Hebrews, we shall treat a little afterwards. But first, as due order demands, we must now speak of the epoch of Moses (κατὰ Μωυσέα), by which the philosophy of the Hebrews will be demonstrated beyond all contradiction to be the most ancient of all wisdom. This has been discussed with accuracy by Tatian in his book To the Greeks, and by Cassian in the first book of his Exegetics. Nevertheless our commentary demands that we too should run over what has been said on the point. Apion, then, the grammarian, surnamed Pleistonices, in the fourth book of The Egyptian Histories, although of so hostile a disposition towards the Hebrews, being by race an Egyptian, as to compose a work against the Jews, when referring to Amosis king of the Egyptians, and his exploits, adduces, as a witness, Ptolemy of Mendes. And his remarks are to the following effect: Amosis, who lived in the time of the Argive Inachus, overthrew Athyria, as Ptolemy of Mendes relates in his Chronology. Now this Ptolemy was a priest; and setting forth the deeds of the Egyptian kings in three entire books, he says, that the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, under the conduct of Moses, took place while Amosis was king of Egypt. Whence it is seen that Moses flourished in the time of Inachus.(ὁ δὲ Πτολεμαῖος οὗτος ἱερεὺς μὲν ἦν, τὰς δὲ τῶν Αἰγυπτίων βασιλέων πράξεις ἐν τρισὶν ὅλαις ἐκθέμενος βίβλοις κατὰ Ἄμωσίν φησιν Αἰγύπτου βασιλέα Μωυσέως ἡγουμένου γεγονέναι Ἰουδαίοις τὴν ἐξ Αἰγύπτου πορείαν, ἐξ ὧν συνῶπται κατὰἼναχον ἠκμακέναι τὸν Μωσέα (Stromata 1.21.102.1)

It is clearly Julius Cassian's point that Ἄμωσίς = Μωσέως but notice that Ptolemy his cited source uses Μωϋσῆς.