John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

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Adam
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John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Adam »

That John the Baptist was a historical figure is all the more proven by the multiple sources analyzable in the four gospels. Displaying these sources supports the Proto-Gospel Hypothesis solution to the Synoptic Problem. The best literal translation available was chosen, the Disciples Literal New Testament. Te format is from Reuben Swanson's Horizontal Line Synopsis in 1975 that used the Revised Standard Version. Also key words that are ambiguous from the Greek even in a literal translation are transliterated, denoted by brackets []. Key problem words (learned from Howard M. Teeple) are such as "say", "give", "came", "go" and "sent". Parentheses are inserted for words in the DLNT text that have no Greek source, except that the reader is advised that Greek has no INdefinate article, so consider parens automatically around any "a" or "an".
Except for stray redaction verses (themselves evidence of perhaps additional eyewitness sourcesJ), this first section seems from the very earliest stratum, an Aramaic Q-like source whereby the corresponding verses do not parallel exactly--except for Bible verses from the Septuagint. As there was a standardized translation (the Septuagint, which is in Greek) available, it is impossible to tell whether the exactly parallel verses are actually from a later Greek Q stratum.,

Mt 3.1 Now in those days John the Baptist comes [paraginitai], proclaiming in the wilderness of Judea
Mk 1.8 And it came [egeneto] about MK 1.4 the (one) baptizing in the wilderness
Mk 1.4 John came [egeneto] ^ proclaiming a baptism (of) repentance (for) the forgiveness (of) sins
Lk 3.2b ...the word of God came [egeneto] to John, the son of Zechariah, in the wilderness.

Mk 1.5 And the whole Judean country was going out [exeporeueto] to him
Lk 3.3 And he went [elthen] into all the surrounding region (of) the Jordan,
proclaiming a baptism (of) repentance for (the) forgiveness of sins
Jn 1.6 There was a man sent [apestalmenos] from God whose name was John.

Mt 3.2 and saying [legoon], "Repent, for the kingdom (of) the heavens has drawn near".

Jn 1.19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews from Jerusalem sent[apestelan] out priests and Levites to him in order that they might ask [erootesoosin] him, "Who are you?" 20 and he confessed and did not deny, And he confessed that "I [ego] am not the Christ", 21 and they asked [erootesan] him, "What then? Are you Elijah? And he says [legei], "I am not". Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No". 22 Then they said [eipan] to him "who are you, in order that we may give an answer to the ones having sent [pempsasin] us? What do you say about yourself?"
23 He said [ephe] "I (am the) voice (of one) shouting in the wilderness, Make straight the way (of the) Lord." [note: for ALL the "I" words here the Greek "ego" does appear. First instance a translator's joke.]

Mt 3.3 For this (one) is the (one) having been spoken [rhetheis] (of) through Isaiah the Prophet
Mk 1.2 Just as it has been written in Isaiah the prophet--
Lk 3.4 as it has been written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet

Mk 1.2b "Behold, I am sending forth My messenger ahead (of) Your presence, who will make Your way ready."

Mt 3.3b "A voice (of one) shouting in the wilderness,'Prepare the way (of the) Lord, be making his paths straight.'"
Mk 1.3 "A voice (of one) shouting in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way (of the) Lord; be making his paths straight.'"
Lk 3.4b "A voice (of one) shouting in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way (of the) Lord, be making his paths straight.'"

Lk 3.5"' Every valley will be filled, and every mountain and hill will be made low, and the crooked (paths) will become straight and the rough (will become) smooth paths. 6 And all flesh will see [opsetai] the salvation (of) God.'"
DLNT
Last edited by Adam on Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
Michael BG
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Michael BG »

Matthew and Luke have Marcan material (Mk 1:2b) from their Q source
Mt 11:10-11 Luke 7:27-28
The Q material might have been:
[27] This is he of whom it is written, `Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee.'
[28] I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
I think John S. Kloppenborg sees both verses as additions firstly verse 28 to restrict “the high estimate of John given in 7:26b,” and later verse 27 to “treat John as a friend of the kingdom. John now stands at the dawning of the kingdom”.

I think it is safe to assume the Old Testament quotes are redaction within the tradition before it reached Mark and Q.

I think we are on much safer ground to see Q Luke 3:7-9 Mt 3:7-10 as part of the oldest tradition.
[7] He said … "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
[9] Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Some doubt that “and do not begin to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham” goes back to John the Baptist.
Adam
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Adam »

I think I forgot to mention that this is just the start of a project to include all verses related to John the Baptist.
Yes, I will be presenting John being John, the "brood of vipers" quote as within the traditional bounds of Q, just Matthew 3:7 parallels Luke 3:7, but I have the pair marked as "Redactor", a later stratum.
I believe there is so much "Q" overlap (Mt and Lk) simply because they and not Mark feature sayings over narrative.
Michael BG
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Michael BG »

Adam wrote:I think I forgot to mention that this is just the start of a project to include all verses related to John the Baptist.
Yes, I will be presenting John being John, the "brood of vipers" quote as within the traditional bounds of Q, just Matthew 3:7 parallels Luke 3:7, but I have the pair marked as "Redactor", a later stratum.
I believe there is so much "Q" overlap (Mt and Lk) simply because they and not Mark feature sayings over narrative.
I can understand the theory that the saying in Q Lk 3:8b-end is a different saying which has been added to another saying, but to reject 3:7-8a, 9 as not being from John would remove much of the idea that John was preaching a message of renewal in face of the judgment of God.

Do you accept that Mark and Q are earlier than Matthew and Luke? Do you accept that Matthew and Luke both used Mark and Q? Why don’t you consider the verses in groups rather than one liners?

I think you have considered

Mk 1:2-5
[2] As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
who shall prepare thy way;
[3] the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight -- "
[4] John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
[5] And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
I would not see verses 2 and 3 as part of the oldest tradition, but they may be part of the tradition Mark received. C H Dodd seems to believe that the use of Old Testament testimonia brings us to early historical tradition, but I agree with Michael Turton that “dependence ... on the OT at both the structural and detail levels” argues against its historicity. These two verses rely on quotes from the Old Testament and therefore are unlikely to be historical especially when considered with the fact that John’s disciples haven’t heard of Jesus and Josephus does not mention John as a forerunner of anyone.

I wonder if “for the forgiveness of sins” and “confessing their sins” are Christian or Marcan additions to bring John’s teaching more in line with their own. It is highly unlikely that all the population of either Judea or Jerusalem went out to see John. There are doubts about where John worked as he was killed by Herod Antipater the tetrarch of Galilee and Petrea it is unlikely he worked in Judea. The Jordan River features in Jewish history and so may be an addition to the story.

Maybe all we can say is that verses 4 and 5 contain some historical information but it might be limited to only,
[4] John the baptizer preached repentance.
[5] And there went out to him people and they were baptized by him.
There is likely to be no older traditions about John the Baptist in John 1.6 and 1:19-23.
Adam
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Adam »

ellipses {} indicate DLNT rare use for word that doesn't belong (?) (DLNT employs brackets to do this)
[Some quotations marks are deleted to be able to post. Some Greek words are shown transliterated just to show their similarity to English]

Mt 3.4 Now [de] John himself was having his clothes {made} of camel's [kamelon] hair, and a belt made of leather
Mk 1.6 Now [de] John was clothed with camel's hair and wore a leather belt

Mt 3.4 around his waist And his food was locusts and wild honey.
Mk 1.6 around his waist, and was eating locusts and wild honey.

Mt 3.5 At that time Jerusalem and all Judea and al the surrounding regions of the Jordan was going out to him.
Mk 1.5 And the whole Judean country was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem.
Jn 1.24 And they had been sent out [pempsasin] from the Pharisees. And they asked [erootesan] him, and said [legein] to him
"Why then are you baptizing if you are not the Christ, not Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
Jn 1.26 John responded to them saying, [legoon] I baptize with water, but amidst you stands (One) Whom you do not know--The (One) coming after me,

Mt 3.7 But having seen [idoon] many (of) the Pharisees and Sadducees coming [erkhomenous] to his baptism, he said [eipen] to them
Lk 3.7 Therefore he was saying [elegen] (to) the crowds coming out [ekporeuomenois]to be baptized by him,

Mt 3.7b Brood of vipers--who showed you to flee from the coming wrath?
Lk 3.7b Brood of vipers--who showed you to flee from the coming wrath?

Mt 3.8 Therefore produce fruit worthy of repentance
Lk 3.8 Therefore produce fruits worthy of repentance

Mt 3.9 And do not think (that you may) say [legein] within yourselves, 'We have Abraham (as our) father'.
Lk 3.8 And do not begin to say [legein] within yourselves, 'We have Abraham (as our) father'

Mt 3.9 For I say [legoo] (to) you that God is able to raise up children (for) Abraham from these stones!
Lk 3.9 For I say [legoo] (to) you that God is able to raise up children (for) Abraham from these stones!

Mt 3.10 And the axe [axine] is already lying at the root (of) the tree.
Lk 3.9 And indeed the axe is already lying at the root (of) the trees

Mt 3.10 Therefore every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and thrown into (the) fire."
Lk 3.9 Therefore every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and thrown into (the) fire."

Mt 3.6 And they were being baptized in the Jordan River by him while confessing-out their sins.
Mk 1.5 And they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River while confessing-out their sins,

Lk 3.10 And the crowds were questioning him, saying, "What then should we do?" 11 And having responded, he was saying [elegen] to them "Let the (one) having two tunics give (to) the (one) not having, and let the (one) having food be doing likewise." 12 And tax-collectors also came to be baptized. And they said to him, "Teacher, what should we do?" 13 And the (one) said to them, "Be collecting nothing more than the (amount) having been commanded." 14 And (ones) serving-as-soldiers also were questioning [erootoon] saying [legontes], "And us, what should we do?" And he said (to) them "Do not violently extort anyone, nor extort-with-false-charges. And be content (with) your wages."

Lk 3.15 And while the populace (was) waiting-in-expectation and all (were) pondering in their hearts about John
--if perhaps he might be the Christ--John responded saying [legoon] to everyone,

Mt 3.11 I am baptizing you with water for repentance, but the (One) coming after me is more powerful
Mk 1.7 And he was proclaiming, saying [legoon] The (One) more powerful than me is coming after me--
Lk 3.16 I am baptizing you with water, but the one more powerful (than) me is coming,

Mk 1.8 I baptized you (with) water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit"

Mt 3.11b (of) Whom I am not fit to carry the sandals.
Mk 1.7b (of) Whom I am not fit, having stooped,to untie the strap of his sandals
Lk 3.16 (of) Whom I am not worthy that I may untie the strap of his sandal.
Jn 1.26b (of) Whom I am not worthy that I may untie the strap of his sandal.

Mt. 3.11 He will baptize you with (the) Holy Spirit and fire
Mk 1.8 He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit
Lk 3.16c He will baptize you with (the) Holy Spirit and fire

Mt 3.12 Whose winnowing-tool (is) in His hand, and He will cleanse-out his threshing floor and gather
Lk 3.17 Whose winnowing-tool (is) in His hand, (so as) to clean out his threshing floor and gather

Mt 3.12 the wheat into His barn, but He will burn up the chaff (with an) inextinguishable fire.
LK 3.17 His wheat into the barn . But He will burn up the chaff (with an) inextinguishable fire.

Lk 3.18 So indeed, while also exhorting many other (things), he was announcing-good-news-to [uniquely Lucan word, I believe] the people.

[Much in this post is conventionally "Q", but so similar between Matthew and Luke that Q does not look like a source, but a redactional intervention. Like it was originally inserted in Luke, then copied into Matthew, as Boismard thought.
In contrast, much of the comparable text appears in all four gospels, showing once again it's an Aramaic source-document.]
DLNT
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Adam
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Adam »

[The English "behold" always comes from the Greek "idou" or "ide"]
Jn 1.28 These (things) took place [egeneto] in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Jn 1.29 On the next day he sees [blepei] Jesus coming [erkhomenon] toward him. And he says, [legei] "Look [Ide]--the Lamb of God, the (One) taking-away the sin (of) the world. 30 This (One) is (the One) about Whom I said, [eipon], '(A) man is coming [erkhetai] after me Who
Mt 3.11b he who is coming after me is more powerful (than) me
Mk 1.7c coming after me
Mk 1.7b The (One) who is more powerful {than} me
Lk 3.16b but the (One) more powerful (than) me is coming
Jn 1.30b has become [gegonen] ahead of me, because He was before me. 31 And I did not know [edein] Him. But I came [elthon] baptizing with water for this reason--that he might be revealed (to) Israel".
Mk 1.9 And it came about [egeneto] during those days (that) Jesus came [elthen] from Nazareth (of) Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John.
Mt 3.13 Then Jesus comes [paraginetai] from Galilee to the Jordan (that he might) be baptized by him.
Mt 3.14 But John was preventing Him, saying [legoon], "I have (a) need to be baptized by You, and You are coming [erkhe] to me?" 15 But having responded, Jesus said to him, "Permit (it) at this time. For it is fitting (for) us to fulfill all righteousness in this manner". Then he permits Him.

Lk 3.21 And it came about [egeneto] when all the people were baptized, Jesus also having been baptized and praying
Mt 3.16 Jesus immediately ascended [aneve]from the water.
Mk 1.10 And immediately while ascending [anabainoon] out of the water,

Mt 3.16 And behold--[idou] the heavens were opened to Him
Mk 1,10 He saw [eiden] the heavens being divided
Lk 3.21 (that) the heaven was opened

Jn 1.32 And John testified, saying [legoon] .

Jn 1.32 that "I have seen [tetheamai] the Spirit descending like (a) dove out of heaven
Mt 3.16b and he saw [eiden] the Spirit of God descending as if a dove and coming [erkhomenon] upon Him.
And behold--[idou]
Mk 1.10b and the Spirit like a dove descending to Him
.
Mt 3.17 (a) voice from the heavens saying, [legousa] "This is My beloved Son with Whom I was well-pleased
Mi 1.11 And (a) voice came [egeneto] from the heavens--"You are My beloved Son. With You I was well-pleased".
Lk 3.22 and (a) voice came [genesthai] from heaven, "You are my beloved Son. With You I was well-pleased.

Jn 1.32 And He remained upon Him.
Jn 1.33 And I did not know [edein] Him. But the (One) having sent [pempsas] me to baptize with water, that (One) said [eipen] (to) me, 'Upon whomever you see [ides] the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him--this (One) is the (One) baptizing with (the) Holy Spirit.' 34 And I have seen [heooraka] and I have testified that this (One) is the Son (of) God"
'Jn 1.35 On the next day John was again standing (there), and two of his disciples
Jn 1.36 And having looked [emblepsas] at Jesus walking, he says [legei], "Look [ide] the Lamb (of) God".
Jn 1.37 And the two disciples heard him speaking [lalountos] and followed Jesus.
Jn 1.38 And Jesus, having turned and having seen [theasamenos] them following, says [legei] to them, "What are you seeking?" And they said [eipan] to him, "Rabbi (which means teacher) "where are you staying?"
Jn 1.39 He says [legei] to them, "Come and you will see [opsesthe]". So they went [elthen] and saw [eidan]where he was staying and they stayed with him that day, for it was about the tenth hour?
Jn 1.40 One of the two who heard Jphn speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
Jn 1.41 He first found (his) own brother Simon and says [legei] to him, "We have found the Messiah."(which being translated is "Christ") 42 He brought him to Jesus,. Having looked at him, Jesus said, "You are Simon the son of John. You will be called Cephas." (which is translated "Peter")
DLNT
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Adam
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Adam »

Jn 1.43 (On) the next day He wanted to go forth to Galilee. And He finds Philip. And Jesus says [legei] (to) him, "Be following Me." 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city (of) Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip finds Nathanael and says (to) him, "We have found [heurekamen] (the One of) whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the Prophets (wrote)--Jesus, son of Joseph, from Nazareth: 46 And Nathanael said [eipen] (to) him, ""Is anything good able to be out of Nazareth?" Philip says [legei] (to) him, "Come and see" 47 Jesus saw [eiden] Nathanael coming [erkhomenon] tp Him. and says [legei] about him, "Look--truly (an) Israelite in whom there is no deceit." 48 Nathanael says [legel] (to) Him, "From where do You know me?" Jesus responded "Before Philip called you, while being under the fig tree, I saw [eidon] you." 49 Nathanael responded to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son (of) God. You are the King (of) Israel". 50 Jesus responded and said (to) him, "Do you believe because I said (to) you that I saw [eidon] you under the fig tree? You will see [opse] greater (things than) these!" 51 And he says [legei] (to) him, "Truly, truly, I say [legoo] to you all, You will see [opsesthe] heaven opened and the angels (of) God ascending and descending upon the Son (of) Man."

Lk 3.19 But Herod the tetrarch--while being rebuked by him concerning Herodias,
Lk 3.19 the wife (of) his brother, and concerning all (the) evil (things) which Herod did--

Mt 14.3 because of Herodias the wife (of) Philip his brother
Lk 3.19 for Herodias his brother's wife

Lk 3.20 also added to everything: he also locked-up John in prison.
Mt 14.3 For Herod, having seized John, bound him and put (him) away in prison
Mk 6.17 For Herod himself, having sent out (men), seized John and bound him to prison
Mk 6.17 because of Herodias, the wife (of) Philip his brother--because he married her

Mt 14. 4 For John was saying [elegen] (to) him, "It is not lawful (for) you to have her".
Mk 6.18 For John was saying (to) Herod that "It is not lawful (for) you to have the wife of your brother."
.
Mt. 14. 5 and while wanting to kill him, he feared the crowd, because they were holding him as a prophet.
Mk 6.19 And Herodias was hostile (to) him and wanting to kill him, and was not being able.
Mk 6.20 For Herod was fearing John, knowing (that) he (was a) righteous and holy man.
Mk 6.20 And he was protecting him. And having heard him, he was greatly perplexed and (yet) he was listening to him with pleasure.
Mk 6.21 And (an) opportune day having come about [genomenes] when Herod, (for) his birthday-celebrations, made (a) banquet (for) his princes and the commanders and the leading (ones of) Galilee.
Mt 14.6 But (at) Herod's birthday-celebrations having come about,

Mt. 14.6 the daughter (of) Herodias danced in (their) midst. And she pleased Herod
Mk 6 22 and his daughter Herodias having come in and danced-- she pleased Herod, and the (ones) reclining-back

with (him) {to eat}. The king said (to) the girl,
Mk 6,22 The king said (to) the girl, "Ask [aiteson] me whatever you wish and I will give (it to) you".

Mt 14:.7 Hence he declared with (an) oath to give her whatever she asked [aitesetai].
Mk 6.23 And he swore-with-an-oath (to) her solemnly,"Whatever thing you ask [aiteses] me, I will give (it to) you--up to half my kingdom".

Mk 6.24 And having gone out, she said (to) her mother, "What should I ask-for?"
And the (one) said [eipen] "The head (of) John, the (one) baptizing."
Mt 14.8 And the (one), having been prompted by her mother, says, [fesin]
25 And having immediately gone in with haste to the king,
she asked, [etesato] saying (legousa)

Mk 6,25 "I want you to give me at-once [exautes] on a platter the head (of) John the Baptist".
Mt 14.8 "Give me here on a platter the head (of) John the Baptist."

Mt 14.9 and {although} having been grieved, the king ordered (that it) be given, because of the oaths
Mk 6.26 And the king, having become [genomenous] deeply-grieved, did not want to reject her because of the oaths
Mt 14.9 and the ones reclining-back with (him) {to eat}.

Mk 6.27 And immediately having sent [aposteleilas]-out (an) executioner, the king commanded (him) to bring his head.
Mk 6.27 And having gone [apelthoon] he beheaded him in the prison.
Mt 14.10 And having sent,[pempsas] he beheaded him in the prison.

Mk 6.28 And he brought his head on a platter and gave it (to) the girl. And the girl gave it (to) her mother.
Mt 14.11 And his head was brought on a plaster and given (to) the girl, and she brought (it to) her mother.

Mk 6.29 When the disciples heard of it they came [elthon] and took his body and laid it in a tomb
Mt 14.12 And his disciples came [proselthontes] and took the body and buried it
Mt 14.12 and they went [elthontes] and told Jesus.

Mt 14.1 At that time, Herod the tetrarch heard the report about Jesus 2 and said [eipen] (to) his servants,
"This (One) is John the Baptist. He himself arose from the dead, and for this reason the (miraculous) powers are at-work in him".
EDITED TO ADD:
This almost finishes " Horizontal Line Synopsis" lay-out. for the "John the Baptist" discrete portion. Look it over, form your own ideas, fire them at me, sooner the better as I will soon be adding section headings and commentary that established my Proto-Gospel interpretation of the sources. Or wait for me to explain what it means.
All that's left is the Transfiguration (and whether John the Baptist was Elijah) and the solely Matthean 11:2-19 about John's disciples asking Jesus if He is the One. I'll put that up tomorrow--no big source controversy there about a source used in multiple thus clueing us whether it's from oral gospel, Aramaic, or Greek.
DLNT
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outhouse
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by outhouse »

Adam wrote:, the Disciples Literal New Testament.
There is no such a thing that exist.

You are far overreaching academic lines yet again with unsubstantiated misplaced certainty.
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Peter Kirby »

Warning: Failure to maintain conversational coherence, repeated replies to self (in some less than logical sequence), pasting reams of verses without context, and other sub-standard posting can lead to temporary (or permanent) ban. (This pertains to other threads as well.)
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
Michael BG
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Re: John the Baptist Sources Parallel Bible

Post by Michael BG »

outhouse wrote:
Adam wrote:, the Disciples Literal New Testament.
There is no such a thing that exist.

You are far overreaching academic lines yet again with unsubstantiated misplaced certainty.
I think it is the name that you don’t like, but it sure does exist! –
http://literalnewtestament.com/wp-conte ... s/DLNT.pdf

I am not sure it does what it says on the tin.

Mt 11:11

ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐκ ἐγήγερται ἐν γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν
μείζων
Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ:
ὁ δὲ μικρότερος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν.

My literal translation keeping the Greek word order:

[11] Truly (Amen), I say to you, none have arisen among those born of women
greater
than John the Baptist;
yet the least in the kingdom of heaven greater than he is.

The DLNT translation:

“11 Truly I say to you, a greater one than John the Baptist has not arisen among ones born of women. But the least one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.”
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