James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

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DCHindley
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by DCHindley »

The table below, garnered from the old Jewish Encyclopedia, represents the common transliterations of Hebrew/Aramaic letters into Greek and Latin letters.

If this is used as a guide, Greek ωβλιας (ōblias) should correspond to Alef+Vav (או = ω) & Bet or Vav ( ב or ו = β) & Lamed ( ל = λ) & maybe Alef or Yod ( א or י = ι), plus generic Greek case ending -ας ("-as"), unless the preceding iota (ι) was meant to be an imaginative case ending for a foreign sounding word (-ιας).

I think this boils down to are

Alef+Vav
Bet/Vav
Lamed
Alef/Yod
Hebrew
Alef+Vav Bet Lamed Alef אובלא
Alef+Vav Bet Lamed Yod אובלי
Alef+Vav Vav Lamed Alef אוובלא
Alef+Vav Vav Lamed Yod אוובלי

Whether this jibes with any of the suggestions I have not had the opportunity to look.

DCH (Spouse & I are taking on out for a birthday lunch (well, the weekend following his birthday).

Hebrew
Name
Latin
Greek
Greek Name
א Alef a α Alpha
א Alef e ε Epsilon
א Alef i ι Iota
א Alef o ο Omicron
א Alef n/a οι Omicon+Iota
אב Alef+Bet n/a αυ Alpha+Upsilon
או Alef+Vav n/a αυ Alpha+Upsilon
או Alef+Vav n/a ευ Epsilon+Upsilon
או Alef+Vav o ο Omicron
או Alef+Vav u ου Omicron+Upsilon
או Alef+Vav n/a ω Omega
אוי Alef+Vav+Yod n/a ευ Epsilon+Upsilon
אי Alef+Yod ae αι Alpha+Iota
אי Alef+Yod n/a αυ Alpha+Upsilon
אי Alef+Yod n/a ευ Epsilon+Upsilon
אי Alef+Yod n/a η Eta
ב Bet b β Beta
ב Bet p π Pi
ב Bet f φ Phi
ג Gimel g γ Gama
ג Gimel k κ Kappa
ג Gimel c n/a n/a
גג Gimel+Gimel n/a γγ Gama+Gama
גכ Gimel+Kaf n/a γχ Gamma+Chi
גק Gimel+Qof n/a γκ Gama+Kappa
ד Dalet d δ Delta
ה He a α Alpha
ה He n/a η Eta
ו Vav b β Beta
ו Vav o ο Omicron
ו Vav u ου Omicron+Upsilon
ו Vav n/a ω Omega
ו Vav v n/a n/a
ז Zayin z ζ Zeta
ז Zayin s σ Sigma
ח Het n/a χ Chi
ט Tet n/a θ Theta
ט Tet t τ Tau
י Yod ae αι Alpha+Iota
י Yod e ε Epsilon
י Yod n/a ει Epsilon+Iota
י Yod n/a η Eta
י Yod i ι Iota
י Yod n/a οι Omicon+Iota
י Yod j n/a n/a
כס Kaf+Samekh n/a ξ Ksi
ל Lamed l λ Lambda
מ Mem m μ Mu
נ Nun n ν Nu
ע Ayin a α Alpha
ע Ayin e ε Epsilon
ע Ayin n/a n/a n/a
פ Pe p π Pi
פ Pe f φ Phi
פס Pe+Samekh n/a ψ Psi
צ Tsadi s σ Sigma
ק Qof k κ Kappa
ק Qof q n/a n/a
קס Qof+Samekh n/a ξ Ksi
ר Resh r ρ Rho
ש Shin s σ Sigma
ת Tav n/a θ Theta

Secret Alias
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

But this is readily disproved. As we all know things are never this straight forward. The name Onias is a clear contradiction.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

Side by side comparisons of two section in the Greek and Syriac editions of Eusebius. First the Greek:
1. Of Theophilus, whom we have mentioned as bishop of the church of Antioch, three elementary works addressed to Autolycus are extant; also another writing entitled Against the Heresy of Hermogenes, in which he makes use of testimonies from the Apocalypse of John, and finally certain other catechetical books.
2. And as the heretics, no less then than at other times, were like tares, destroying the pure harvest of apostolic teaching, the pastors of the churches everywhere hastened to restrain them as wild beasts from the fold of Christ, at one time by admonitions and exhortations to the brethren, at another time by contending more openly against them in oral discussions and refutations, and again by correcting their opinions with most accurate proofs in written works.

3. And that Theophilus also, with the others, contended against them, is manifest from a certain discourse of no common merit written by him against Marcion. This work too, with the others of which we have spoken, has been preserved to the present day.

Maximinus, the seventh from the apostles, succeeded him as bishop of the church of Antioch.

Chapter 25. Philip and Modestus.

Philip who, as we learn from the words of Dionysius, was bishop of the parish of Gortyna, likewise wrote a most elaborate work against Marcion, as did also Irenæus and Modestus. The last named has exposed the error of the man more clearly than the rest to the view of all. There are a number of others also whose works are still presented by a great many of the brethren.

Chapter 26. Melito and the Circumstances which he records.

1. In those days also Melito, bishop of the parish in Sardis, and Apolinarius, bishop of Hierapolis, enjoyed great distinction. Each of them on his own part addressed apologies in behalf of the faith to the above-mentioned emperor of the Romans who was reigning at that time.

2. The following works of these writers have come to our knowledge. Of Melito, the two books On the Passover, and one On the Conduct of Life and the Prophets, the discourse On the Church, and one On the Lord's Day, still further one On the Faith of Man, and one On his Creation, another also On the Obedience of Faith, and one On the Senses; besides these the work On the Soul and Body, and that On Baptism, and the one On Truth, and On the Creation and Generation of Christ; his discourse also On Prophecy, and that On Hospitality; still further, The Key, and the books On the Devil and the Apocalypse of John, and the work On the Corporeality of God, and finally the book addressed to Antoninus.
3. In the books On the Passover he indicates the time at which he wrote, beginning with these words: While Servilius Paulus was proconsul of Asia, at the time when Sagaris suffered martyrdom, there arose in Laodicea a great strife concerning the Passover, which fell according to rule in those days; and these were written.
4. And Clement of Alexandria refers to this work in his own discourse On the Passover, which, he says, he wrote on occasion of Melito's work.

5. But in his book addressed to the emperor he records that the following events happened to us under him: For, what never before happened, the race of the pious is now suffering persecution, being driven about in Asia by new decrees. For the shameless informers and coveters of the property of others, taking occasion from the decrees, openly carry on robbery night and day, despoiling those who are guilty of no wrong. And a little further on he says: If these things are done by your command, well and good. For a just ruler will never take unjust measures; and we indeed gladly accept the honor of such a death.

6. But this request alone we present to you, that you would yourself first examine the authors of such strife, and justly judge whether they be worthy of death and punishment, or of safety and quiet. But if, on the other hand, this counsel and this new decree, which is not fit to be executed even against barbarian enemies, be not from you, much more do we beseech you not to leave us exposed to such lawless plundering by the populace.
7. Again he adds the following: For our philosophy formerly flourished among the Barbarians; but having sprung up among the nations under your rule, during the great reign of your ancestor Augustus, it became to your empire especially a blessing of auspicious omen. For from that time the power of the Romans has grown in greatness and splendor. To this power you have succeeded, as the desired possessor, and such shall you continue with your son, if you guard the philosophy which grew up with the empire and which came into existence with Augustus; that philosophy which your ancestors also honored along with the other religions.

8. And a most convincing proof that our doctrine flourished for the good of an empire happily begun, is this — that there has no evil happened since Augustus' reign, but that, on the contrary, all things have been splendid and glorious, in accordance with the prayers of all.

9. Nero and Domitian, alone, persuaded by certain calumniators, have wished to slander our doctrine, and from them it has come to pass that the falsehood has been handed down, in consequence of an unreasonable practice which prevails of bringing slanderous accusations against the Christians.
10. But your pious fathers corrected their ignorance, having frequently rebuked in writing many who dared to attempt new measures against them. Among them your grandfather Adrian appears to have written to many others, and also to Fundanus, the proconsul and governor of Asia. And your father, when you also were ruling with him, wrote to the cities, forbidding them to take any new measures against us; among the rest to the Larissæans, to the Thessalonians, to the Athenians, and to all the Greeks.
11. And as for you—since your opinions respecting the Christians are the same as theirs, and indeed much more benevolent and philosophic — we are the more persuaded that you will do all that we ask of you. These words are found in the above-mentioned work.

12. But in the Extracts made by him the same writer gives at the beginning of the introduction a catalogue of the acknowledged books of the Old Testament, which it is necessary to quote at this point. He writes as follows:

13. Melito to his brother Onesimus, greeting: Since you have often, in your zeal for the word, expressed a wish to have extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour and concerning our entire faith, and has also desired to have an accurate statement of the ancient book, as regards their number and their order, I have endeavored to perform the task, knowing your zeal for the faith, and your desire to gain information in regard to the word, and knowing that you, in your yearning after God, esteem these things above all else, struggling to attain eternal salvation.

14. Accordingly when I went East and came to the place where these things were preached and done, I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to you as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book ; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books. Such are the words of Melito.
And then the Syriac:
BUT as to Theophilus, concerning whom we have said that he was Bishop of Antioch, there are three treatises by him against Antolycus, and another which is inscribed "Against the heresy of Hermogenes," in which he uses testimonies from the Revelation of John; and there are other books by him which are suitable for teaching. But those, who pertained to heretical doctrine, even at that time like tares were corrupting the pure seed of the doctrine of the Apostles; but the Pastors which were in the churches in every country, were driving them like beasts of the wilderness away from the flock of Christ; at one time by teaching and exhortation to the Brethren, but at another time (34) openly before their faces they contended with them in discussion, and put them to shame; and again, also, by writing treatises they diligently refuted and exposed their opinions. But Theophilus, together with others, contended against them; and he is celebrated for one treatise, which was ably composed by him against Marcion, which, together with the others that I have |57 already mentioned, is still preserved. And after him Maximinus received the Bishoprick of the Church of Antioch, who was the seventh after the Apostles.

But Philip, respecting whom we have learned from the words of Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth,2 that he was Bishop of the church of the city of Gortyna, he also composed with accuracy a treatise against Marcion; Irenaeus too, and Modestus, who, more than the others, openly exposed the error of this man; and many others whose treatises are preserved in the possession of many Brethren up to this day.

At this time, also, Meliton, Bishop of the church of Sardis, and Apollinaris, Bishop of the church of Hierapolis, flourished with praise; who made, each one of them for himself, a separate apology for the Faith, and presented it to the Emperor of the Romans, who lived at that time. But the treatises by these, with which we have become acquainted, are the following:----by Meliton, On Easter two, and On Polity, and On the Prophets; and another On the Church, and another On the First Day of the Week; and again another On the Faith of Man,3 and another On his Formation; and again another On the Hearing of the Ear of Faith:4 and besides these, On the Soul and Body; and again On Baptism, and On the Truth, and On the Faith;5 and On the Birth of Christ, and On the word of his Prophecy; and again On the Soul and on the Body;6 and another On the Love of Strangers, and On Satan, and On the Revelation of John;7 and again another On God who put on the body;8 and again another which he wrote to the Emperor Antoninus. But when he wrote respecting the time of Easter, at the commencement he gave this information, "In the time of Servilius. Paulus, proconsul of Asia, Agaris (Sagaris) suffered martyrdom; and there was much questioning in Laodicea touching Easter, which varied as to the time in those days, and these things were written." But this same tract Clement of Alexandria(35) mentions in a treatise of his own which he wrote on Easter, and says that it was on the occasion of this treatise of Meliton that he himself also wrote. But in that apology, which he presented to the Emperor, he relates that such things were done by him to our people: "That |58 which never before took place;----the race of those who fear God is now persecuted by new decrees in Asia; for calumniators and such as covet the possessions of others, who have no shame, under the pretence of their having a decree, openly plunder and rob by night and by day men who have done no wrong." And after other things he proceeds to say, "If thou hast ordered this to be done, well; it is also done; for a righteous sovereign never purposeth any thing unrighteously. We even gladly endure the honour of this death; but we present to thee this supplication only, that thou wouldest first inquire respecting those who are the actors in this contest, and judge righteously, whether they be deserving of death and punishment, or of life and quietness. But if this will, and this new decree, be not from thee, which is not meet to be executed in this manner, not even towards barbarians and enemies,----the more especially do we entreat of thee not to be unmindful of us in this persecution by the world." But after this he proceeds----"Because our philosophy first flourished among the Barbarians; but it also sprung up among thine own people in the days of Augustus, and it became for the empire of the Romans a great power, and for thine own empire especially a good education; for from that time the dominion of the Romans increased and enlarged itself, which thou hast received and augmented, and thou wilt still strengthen it together with thy son, so long as thou protectest this philosophy which groweth up together with thy empire, that commenced with Augustus; which thy fathers also honoured together with the other religions: and this is a great proof, that for the good of the empire our preaching also sprang up together with its auspicious commencement, because since the days of Augustus no evil has befallen your empire, but rather in every thing it has acquired glory and power through the prayers of us all. And of all who have been Emperors, Nero and Domitian only gave heed to envious men, and received the accusation against our doctrine; and from these same, as by some unreasonable custom, it was brought to pass that the violence of falsehood should be directed against us.(30) But thine own ancestors corrected the error of these; for oftentimes |59 they rebuked by letters many who were desirous of attempting to cause troubles on this account; and thy grandfather Hadrian wrote to many touching this; and to Fundius (Fundanus) 9 the proconsul of Asia. But thy father wrote respecting us to different cities, that no man should injure us, during the time that thou also together with him wast governing every thing; even to the Pharisaeans (Larissaeans) 9 and to the Thessalonians, and to Athens, and to all nations. But respecting thyself, we are persuaded that thou, still more than they, hast a good will concerning these things; and we are persuaded that thou wilt the rather order with wisdom whatsoever we entreat of thee." But so far were these things set down.

But in the Extracts which were written by Meliton, at the beginning of them, he has noted down the number of the books of the Old Testament and shewn which are received: and it is right we should enumerate them here. But he wrote after this manner: "Meliton to Onesimus my brother, greeting: Because oftentimes with that earnestness which thou hast touching the Word, thou hast exhorted me to make for thee Extracts from the Law and from the Prophets relating to our Saviour and to the whole of our faith, and moreover hast been desirous to learn accurately respecting the Antient Books, how many they are in number and what they are consecutively, I have given diligence to do this, because I am persuaded through, thy earnestness touching the faith and touching the doctrine of the Word, that thou esteemest the love of God above every thing, and art striving for eternal life. When, therefore, I went up to the East, and proceeded even to that country in which they were preached and practised, and had learned accurately respecting the books of the Old Testament, I wrote them down and have sent them to thee. Their names are these-----Of Moses five books, Genesis,and Exodus,and Numbers,and Of the Priests (Leviticus), and Deuteronomy; and again of Jesus, the Son of Nun; and the Book of Judges, and Ruth, and four Books of Kings, and two Books of Chronicles, and the Psalms of David ; and of Solomon, the Proverbs, which is Wisdom, and Koheleth, and the Song of Songs; and Job; and of the Prophets, Isaiah and |60 Jeremiah, and the twelve Prophets together; and Daniel, and Ezekiel, and Ezra: from which same I have made Extracts, and arranged them in six discourses." All these of Meliton. And again there are also many treatises by Apollinaris which are still preserved in the possession of many; but those which have been seen by us are the following----One, which is the Apology, that was made to the same Emperor of whom we have spoken above; and Against the Heathen five books; and Against the Jews two books; and those which he composed afterwards against the heresy of the Phrygians, which had recently sprung up a little time before, because then Montanus, together with the false prophetesses which were attached to him, had begun to turn aside from the truth.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/spici ... ebius4.htm
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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DCHindley
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote:But shur isn't a door. It means wall, ox or jump. But not door.
Yes, I see that now.

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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

The conclusion of Merx (http://www.veritasseminary.com/wenix/Li ... 00euse.pdf) of the Syriac text of Eusebius:
As to the Greek original of the Syriac version, my opinion is that it was the earliest recension, afterwards to some extent modified and so brought into the form which is now preserved in the Greek manuscripts.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

I think I may have solved the 'prophesy' which was applied to James. Look at Genesis 49 and the curse placed on the sons of Levi:
Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords are weapons of violence.
6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed a man (אִ֔ישׁ) in their anger
and in their self-will they downed an ox (שֽׁוֹר - or alternatively with KJV "they downed a wall").
7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob (or James)
and disperse them in Israel.
The word for 'wall' here is - you guessed it - shur. That James and Jacob are the same name should be acknowledged by everyone. My guess is that Jesus is the ish and that James is the ox or wall. That this ox or wall is 'downed' or 'uprooted' (cf. PalLaws3(1) 100:25 : ולא יעקור רגליה מן אתרה he should not remove his foot from its spot) and James is similarly 'uprooted' can't be coincidence. The narrative in Hegesippus was developed from the prophesy against the priests (= the sons of Levi) in the prophetic section in Genesis 49. The implication clearly follows that because of James's 'uprooting' the Jews were 'scattered' owing to the Jewish War which followed. I think that's the best explanation to the passage so far, no?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

Tertullian (via Justin i.e. the source of the material) comes pretty close to what we are suggesting about James:
[Christ], again, will be the" bull" elsewhere too in the same scripture. When Jacob pronounced a blessing on Simeon and Levi, he prophesies of the scribes and Pharisees; for from them is derived their origin. For (his blessing) interprets spiritually thus: "Simeon and Levi perfected iniquity out of their sect," --whereby, to wit, they persecuted Christ: "into their counsel come not my soul! and upon their station rest not my heart! because in their indignation they slew men"--that is, prophets--"and in their concupiscence they hamstrung a bull!" --that is, Christ, whom--after the slaughter of prophets--they slew, and exhausted their savagery by transfixing His sinews with nails. Else it is idle if, after the murder already committed by them, he upbraids others, and not them, with butchery [Adv Iud 10.8]
This is a very old Christian adaptation of scripture.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

In case anyone is curious Genesis 49:6 LXX
εἰς βουλὴν αὐτῶν μὴ ἔλθοι ἡ ψυχή μου καὶ ἐπὶ τῇ συστάσει αὐτῶν μὴ ἐρείσαι τὰ ἥπατά μου ὅτι ἐν τῷ θυμῷ αὐτῶν ἀπέκτειναν ἀνθρώπους καὶ ἐν τῇ ἐπιθυμίᾳ αὐτῶν ἐνευροκόπησαν ταῦρον
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

The context starts to make sense when you think about it. A comparison with a bull is found in Gen 49:6, where Jacob describes to Simeon and Levi (Genesis 34) the butchering of the men of Shechem: “for in their anger they slay men and in their wantonness they hamstring oxen.” The idea that the leading men of Shechem (a close parallel with Jerusalem) were bulls (or singular 'bull') finds a close parallel in Jacob within Jerusalem relative to the existing priesthood (= sons of Levi).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: James the Just's name Oblias (Ωβλιας)

Post by Secret Alias »

And then there is the question of where or how 'oblias' came into the Greek text of Hegesippus (or perhaps the later Greek text of Eusebius). Oblias might be a corruption of any one of these Latin words:

būbulus m ‎(feminine būbula, neuter būbulum); first/second declension

Of or pertaining to cattle, cows, oxen or bulls.
Inflection[edit]
First/second declension.

Number Singular Plural
Case / Gender Masculine Feminine Neuter Masculine Feminine Neuter
nominative būbulus būbula būbulum būbulī būbulae būbula
genitive būbulī būbulae būbulī būbulōrum būbulārum būbulōrum
dative būbulō būbulō būbulīs
accusative būbulum būbulam būbulum būbulōs būbulās būbula
ablative būbulō būbulā būbulō būbulīs
vocative būbule būbula būbulum būbulī būbulae būbula
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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