Another text, another story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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JoeWallack
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The reader and Judas Iscariot


Mark Matthew Luke John
The motive of Judas in GMark is not narrated. His decision to deliver Jesus is made before the offer of the chief priests to pay money. The motive of Judas in GMatthew is personal profit. The motive of Judas in GLuke is the influence of Satan. The motive of Judas in GJohn is the influence of the devil. But he is also a common thief who robbed the poors.
Mark 14:10-11 Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went away to the chief priests, that he might deliver him to them. They, when they heard it, were glad, and promised to give him money. He sought how he might conveniently deliver him. Matthew 26:14-16 Then one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests, and said, “What are you willing to give me, that I should deliver him to you?” They weighed out for him thirty pieces of silver. From that time he sought opportunity to betray him. Luke 22:3-4 Satan entered into Judas, who was surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered with the twelve. He went away, and talked with the chief priests and captains about how he might deliver him to them. They were glad, and agreed to give him money. John 12:4-6 Then Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, one of his disciples, who would betray him, said, “Why wasn’t this ointment sold for three hundred denarii, and given to the poor?” Now he said this, not because he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and having the money box, used to steal what was put into it.
John 13:2 And During supper—the devil having already put into the heart of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, that he should betray him


German scholar Stefan Lücking argued that we can find a “purposeful indeterminacy” in Mark. This can be seen also in the “sandwiched” story, the anointing of Bethany.

A man with a name and a descriptive detail. He plays no role in the story. Mark 14:3 While he was at Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper,
An unknown woman with unknown motives. She plays an important role in the story. Mark 14:3 While he was at Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at the table, a woman came having an alabaster jar of ointment of pure nard—very costly. She broke the jar, and poured it over his head.
An unknown group of some. They play an important role in the story. Mark 14:4 But there were some who were indignant among themselves, saying, “Why has this ointment been wasted? For this might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and given to the poor.” They grumbled against her.

Lücking argued that in GJohn the reader will identify Judas with a cliche of bad and evil. But in GMark the reader will scrutinize Judas.

To be a Judas is a real opportunity for all in GMark.
JW:
There's a simple explanation here. "Mark" (author) with the original related narrative is simply following his source here:

1 Corinthians 11:23
For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; (ASV)
No motive in the source so no motive in the parallel. Real historians like Josephus generally try to also provide motivations. Subsequent Gospellers are trying to sound more historical and try to provide motives. As always they contradict each here because none of them had actual history to follow.

Bonus material for Solo. Note that in connection to GMark ending his Jesus story with γὰρ, Paul starts his Jesus story (here) with γὰρ. Indeed.


Joseph

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:There's a simple explanation here. "Mark" (author) with the original related narrative is simply following his source here:

1 Corinthians 11:23
For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; (ASV)
No motive in the source so no motive in the parallel. Real historians like Josephus generally try to also provide motivations. Subsequent Gospellers are trying to sound more historical and try to provide motives. As always they contradict each here because none of them had actual history to follow.
Agreed. That's a good explanation. But I tend to think that Mark was aware of the fact that he didn't narrate the motive of Judas.
Stuart
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Stuart »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:There's a simple explanation here. "Mark" (author) with the original related narrative is simply following his source here:

1 Corinthians 11:23
For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; (ASV)
No motive in the source so no motive in the parallel. Real historians like Josephus generally try to also provide motivations. Subsequent Gospellers are trying to sound more historical and try to provide motives. As always they contradict each here because none of them had actual history to follow.
Agreed. That's a good explanation. But I tend to think that Mark was aware of the fact that he didn't narrate the motive of Judas.
This is extremely unlikely. And for three reasons
1) it assumes Mark used Paul as a source. This assumes both Paul priority, and connection to Mark that is not well demonstrated.
2) it assumes the passage of 1 Corinthians 11:23-32 is not an interpolation from a later hand
3) it ignores that the passage in 1 Corinthians derives from the Lukan Gospel

The whole thing runs in circles. Mark -> Luke -> 1 Corinthians -> Mark

rinse, repeat :confusedsmiley:

This is an example of where supposedly critical scholarship gets into trouble. You focus on one text to question its origin and place, while falsely assuming everything else is neat and in place -- easy enough to find spot to tuck it in nice and snug. Yet, why if one stone is loose, wouldn't other stones be just as loose or even more so?
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
lsayre
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by lsayre »

Stuart, what timelines would you place upon the origin (authorship) of these documents?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Stuart wrote:1) it assumes Mark used Paul as a source. This assumes both Paul priority, and connection to Mark
2) it assumes the passage of 1 Corinthians 11:23-32 is not an interpolation from a later hand
Yes.
Stuart wrote:3) it ignores that the passage in 1 Corinthians derives from the Lukan Gospel
I would say, it ignores speculations that the passage in 1 Corinthians derives from the Lukan Gospel

And you think that you have evidence for your assumptions?

I remember that Ben once made the best case for an interpolation that I had ever seen. But my impression was not that he thought to have evidence.
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JoeWallack
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Re: Another text, another story

Post by JoeWallack »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
JoeWallack wrote:There's a simple explanation here. "Mark" (author) with the original related narrative is simply following his source here:

1 Corinthians 11:23
For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; (ASV)
No motive in the source so no motive in the parallel. Real historians like Josephus generally try to also provide motivations. Subsequent Gospellers are trying to sound more historical and try to provide motives. As always they contradict each here because none of them had actual history to follow.
Agreed. That's a good explanation. But I tend to think that Mark was aware of the fact that he didn't narrate the motive of Judas.
Betrayed

JW:

Mark 14
10 And Judas Iscariot, he that was one of the twelve, went away unto the chief priests, that he might deliver him unto them.
παραδοῖ
11 And they, when they heard it, were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently deliver him [unto them]
παραδοῖ.
18 And as they sat and were eating, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you shall betray me, [even] he that eateth with me.
παραδώσει
21 For the Son of man goeth, even as it is written of him: but woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had not been born.
παραδίδοται·
41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough; the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
παραδίδοται
42 Arise, let us be going: behold, he that betrayeth me is at hand.
παραδιδούς
44 Now he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that is he; take him, and lead him away safely.
παραδιδοὺς
15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests with the elders and scribes, and the whole council, held a consultation, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him up to Pilate.
παρέδωκαν
10 For he perceived that for envy the chief priests had delivered him up.
παραδεδώκεισαν
15 And Pilate, wishing to content the multitude, released unto them Barabbas, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
παρέδωκεν

JW:
The English translations vary but the underlying Greek word is always the same. Either "Mark" (author) was retarded or he really wanted to emphasize this word.


Joseph

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