CHRISTIAN Support for Carrier's Reading of Zechariah

[Secret Alias]

I am not a fan of his 'activist' scholarship nor of the theory that Philo thought the high priest Jesus/Joshua from Zechariah was the Logos but I stumbled across a reading of Zechariah within the Christian tradition that supports his theory. From Against the Jews:

Nor will you be able to say that the man (there depicted) is "the son of Jozadak,"338 who was never at all clad in a sordid garment, but was always adorned with the sacerdotal garment, nor ever deprived of the sacerdotal function. But the "Jesus"339 there alluded to is Christ, the Priest of God the most high Father; who at His First Advent came in humility, in human form, and passible, even up to the period of His passion; being Himself likewise made, through all (stages of suffering) a victim for us all; who after His resurrection was"clad with a garment down to the foot,"340 and named the Priest of God the Father unto eternity

Always fair to a fault.

[MrMacSon]

I am not a fan of his 'activist' scholarship, nor of the theory that Philo thought the high priest Jesus/Joshua from Zechariah was the Logos but I stumbled across a reading of Zechariah within the Christian tradition that supports his theory. From Against the Jews:

Nor will you be able to say that the man (there depicted) is "the son of Jozadak", 338 who was never at all clad in a sordid garment, but was always adorned with the sacerdotal garment, nor ever deprived of the sacerdotal function. But the "Jesus" 339 there alluded to is Christ, the Priest of God the most high Father; who at His First Advent came in humility, in human form, and passible, even up to the period of His passion; being Himself likewise made, through all (stages of suffering) a victim for us all; who after His resurrection was"clad with a garment down to the foot," 340 and named the Priest of God the Father unto eternity

Tertullian's Against the Jews Chapter XIV —Conclusion. Clue to the Error of the Jews

Does Carrier refer to this? I don't think Carrier referring to this was raised in the thread about this - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... f=3&t=1944


Let's firstly step back to the previous chapter - Chapter XIII— Argument from the Destruction of Jerusalem and Desolation of Judea. - which has some aspects pertinent to other recent threads here.

Therefore, since the sons of Israel affirm p. 169 that we err in receiving the Christ, who is already come, let us put in a demurrer against them out of the Scriptures themselves, to the effect that the Christ who was the theme of prediction is come; albeit by the times of Daniel’s prediction we have proved that the Christ is come already who was the theme of announcement. Now it behoved Him to be born in Bethlehem of Judah. For thus it is written in the prophet: “And thou, Bethlehem, are not the least in the leaders of Judah: for out of thee shall issue a Leader who shall feed my People Israel.” 1383 But if hitherto he has not been born, what “leader” was it who was thus announced as to proceed from the tribe of Judah, out of Bethlehem? For it behoves him to proceed from the tribe of Judah and from Bethlehem. But we perceive that now none of the race of Israel has remained in Bethlehem; and (so it has been) ever since the interdict was issued forbidding any one of the Jews to linger in the confines of the very district, in order that this prophetic utterance also should be perfectly fulfilled: “Your land is desert, your cities burnt up by fire,”—that is, (he is foretelling) what will have happened to them in time of war “your region strangers shall eat up in your sight, and it shall be desert and subverted by alien peoples.” ... How, therefore, will a “leader” be born from Judea, and how far will he “proceed from Bethlehem,” as the divine volumes of the prophets do plainly announce; since none at all is left there to this day of (the house of) Israel, of whose stock Christ could be born?

Now, if (according to the Jews) He is hitherto not come, when He begins to come whence will He be anointed? 1389 For the Law enjoined that, in captivity, it was not lawful for the unction of the royal chrism to be compounded. 1390 But, if there is no longer “unction” there 1391 as Daniel prophesied (for he says, “Unction shall be exterminated”), it follows that they 1392 no longer have it, because neither have they a temple where was the “horn” 1393 from which kings were wont to be anointed. If, then, there is no unction, whence shall be anointed the “leader” who shall be born in Bethlehem? or how shall he proceed “from Bethlehem,” seeing that of the seed of Israel none at all exists in Bethlehem.

... For, after His advent, we read, according to Daniel, that the city itself had to be exterminated; and we recognise that so it has befallen. For the Scripture says thus, that “the city and the holy place are simultaneously exterminated together with the leader,” 1394 —undoubtedly (that Leader) who was to proceed “from Bethlehem,” and from the tribe of “Judah.” .... David said that “the Lord would reign from the tree:” 1398 for elsewhere, too, the prophet predicts the fruit of this “tree,” saying “The earth hath given her blessings,” 1399 —of course that virgin-earth, not yet irrigated with rains, nor fertilized by p. 170 showers, out of which man was of yore first formed*, out of which now Christ through the flesh has been born of a virgin; “and the tree,” 1400 he says, “hath brought his fruit,” 1401 —not that “tree” in paradise which yielded death to the protoplasts , but 'the “tree” of the passion of Christ', whence life, hanging, was by you not believed! 1402 For this “tree” in a mystery, 1403 it was of yore wherewith Moses sweetened the bitter water; whence the People, which was perishing of thirst in the desert, drank and revived; 1404 just as we do, who, drawn out from the calamities of the heathendom 1405 in which we were tarrying perishing with thirst (that is, deprived of the divine word), drinking, “by the faith which is on Him,” 1406 the baptismal water of the “tree” of the passion of Christ, have revived ...

Again, the mystery of this “tree” 1413 we read as being celebrated even in the Books of the Reigns. For when the sons of the prophets were cutting “wood” 1414 with axes on the bank of the river Jordan, the iron flew off and sank in the stream; and so, on Elisha 1415 the prophet’s coming up, the sons of the prophets beg of him to extract from the stream the iron which had sunk. And accordingly Elisha, having taken “wood,” and cast it into that place where the iron had been submerged, forthwith it rose and swam on the surface, 1416 and the “wood” sank, which the sons of the prophets recovered. 1417 Whence they understood that Elijah’s spirit was presently conferred upon him. 1418 What is more manifest than the mystery 1419 of this “wood,”—that the obduracy of this world 1420 had been sunk in the profundity of error, and is freed in baptism by the “wood” of Christ, that is, of His passion; in order that what had formerly perished through the “tree” in Adam, should be restored through the “tree” in Christ? 1421 while we, of course, who have succeeded to, and occupy, the room of the prophets, at the present day sustain in the world 1422 that treatment which the prophets always suffered on account of divine religion: for some they stoned, some they banished; more, however, they delivered to mortal slaughter, 1423 —a fact which they cannot deny. 1424

This “wood,” again, Isaac the son of Abraham personally carried for his own sacrifice, when God had enjoined that he should be made a victim to Himself ....

Since, therefore, the Jews were predicted as destined to suffer these calamities on Christ’s account, and we find that they have suffered them, and see them sent into dispersion and p. 172 abiding in it, manifest it is that it is on Christ’s account that these things have befallen the Jews, the sense of the Scriptures harmonizing with the issue of events and of the order of the times. Or else, if Christ is not yet come, on whose account they were predicted as destined thus to suffer, when He shall have come it follows that they will thus suffer. And where will then be a daughter of Sion to be derelict, who now has no existence? where the cities to be exust, which are already exust and in heaps? where the dispersion of a race which is now in exile? Restore to Judea the condition which Christ is to find; and (then, if you will), contend that some other (Christ) is coming.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030194.htm

* Adam was a clay figurine

Note there is no reference to Jesus in that chapter^ preceding the one Suss Alias quotes from ...

[MrMacSon]

Now, back to Tertullian's Against the Jews Chapter XIV —Conclusion. Clue to the Error of the Jews

We affirm, two characters of the Christ demonstrated by the prophets, and as many advents of His forenoted: one, in humility (of course the first), when He has to be led “as a sheep for a victim; and, as a lamb voiceless before the shearer, so He opened not His mouth,” not even in His aspect comely ...

... Which evidences of ignobility suit the First Advent, just as those of sublimity do the Second; when He shall be made no longer “a stone of offence nor a rock of scandal,” but “the highest corner-stone,” 1450 after reprobation (on earth) taken up (into heaven) and raised sublime for the purpose of consummation, 1451 and that “rock”—so we must admit—which is read of in Daniel as forecut from a mount, which shall crush and crumble the image of secular kingdoms. 1452 Of which second advent of the same (Christ) Daniel has said: “And, behold, as it were a Son of man, coming with the clouds of the heaven, came unto the Ancient of days, and was present in His sight; and they who were standing by led (Him) unto Him. And there was given Him royal power; and all nations of the earth, according to their race, and all glory, shall serve Him: and His power is eternal, which shall not be taken away, and His kingdom one which shall not be corrupted.” 1453 Then, assuredly, is He to have an honourable mien, and a grace not “deficient more than the sons of men;” for (He will then be) “blooming in beauty in comparison with the sons of men.”

Jeremiah says: “He is a human being, and who will learn to know Him?” 1458 because, “His nativity,” says Isaiah, “who shall declare?” So, too, in Zechariah, in His own person, nay, in the very mystery 1459 of His name withal, the most true Priest of the Father, His own 1460 Christ, is delineated in a twofold garb with reference to the two advents. 1461 First, He was clad in “sordid attire,” that is, in the indignity of passible and mortal flesh, when the devil, withal, was opposing himself to Him—the instigator, to wit, of Judas the traitor 1462 —who even after His baptism had tempted Him. In the next place, He was stripped of His former sordid raiment, and adorned with a garment down to the foot, and with a turban and a clean mitre, that is, (with the garb) of the second advent; since He is demonstrated as having attained “glory and honour.” Nor p. 173 will you be able to say that the man (there depicted) is “the son of Jozadak,” 1463 who was never at all clad in a sordid garment, but was always adorned with the sacerdotal garment, nor ever deprived of the sacerdotal function. But the “Jesus” 1464 there alluded to is Christ, the Priest of God the most high Father; who at His first advent came in humility, in human form, and passible, even up to the period of His passion; being Himself likewise made, through all (stages of suffering) a victim for us all; who after His resurrection was “clad with a garment down to the foot,” 1465 and named the Priest of God the Father unto eternity ....

Therefore, since the vaticinations of the first advent obscured it with manifold figures, and debased it with every dishonour, while the second (was foretold as) manifest and wholly worthy of God, it has resulted therefrom, that, by fixing their gaze on that one alone which they could easily understand and believe (that is, the second, which is in honour and glory), they have been (not undeservedly) deceived as to the more obscure —at all events, the more unworthy— that is, the first. And thus to the present moment they affirm that their Christ is not come, because He is not come in majesty; while they are ignorant of 1471 the fact that He was first to come in humility.

... He is proved such as He was habitually announced: in order that, as a result of this harmony of the Divine Scriptures, we may understand; and that the events which used to be predicted as destined to take place after Christ may be believed to have been accomplished as the result of a divine arrangement ...

... For at the present day nations are invoking Christ which used not to know Him; and peoples at the present day are fleeing in a body to the Christ of whom in days bygone they were ignorant

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030195.htm

[This treatise ['An Answer to the Jews'] was written while our author was a Catholic. This seems to me the best supported of the theories concerning it. Let us accept Pamelius, for once and date it a.d. 198. Dr. Allix following Baronius, will have it as late as a.d. 208. Neander thinks the work, after the quotation from Isaiah in the beginning of chapter ninth, is not our author’s, but was finished by another hand, clumsily annexing what is said on the same chapter of Isaiah in the Third Book Against Marcion. It is only slightly varied. Bp. Kaye admits the very striking facts instanced by Neander, in support of this theory, but demolishes, with a word any argument drawn from thence that the genuine work was written after the author’s lapse ... ]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003 ... tm#fn_1125

[MrMacSon]

Chapter VII —The Question Whether Christ Be Come Taken Up.

Therefore upon this issue plant we foot to foot, whether the Christ who was constantly announced as to come be already come, or whether His coming be yet a subject of hope. For proof of which question itself, the times likewise must be examined by us when the prophets announced that the Christ would come; that, if we succeed in recognising that He has come within the limits of those times, we may without doubt believe Him to be the very one whose future coming was ever the theme of prophetic song, upon whom we —the nations, to wit— were ever announced as destined to believe; and that, when it shall have been agreed that He is come, we may undoubtedly likewise believe that the new law has by Him been given, and not disavow the new testament in Him and through Him drawn up for us. For that Christ was to come we know that even the Jews do not attempt to disprove, inasmuch as it is to His advent that they are directing their hope. Nor need we inquire at more length concerning that matter, since in days bygone all the prophets have prophesied of it; as Isaiah: “Thus saith the Lord God to my Christ (the) Lord, 1218 whose right hand I have holden, that the nations may hear Him: the powers of kings will I burst asunder; I will open before Him the gates, and the cities shall not be closed to Him.” Which very thing we see fulfilled. For whose right hand does God the Father hold but Christ’s, His Son?—whom all nations have heard, that is, whom all nations have believed,—whose preachers, withal, the apostles, are pointed to in the Psalms of David: “Into the universal earth,” says he, “is gone out their sound, and unto the ends of the earth their words.” 1219 For upon whom else have the universal nations believed, but upon the Christ who is already come?

...Christ’s Name is extending everywhere, believed everywhere, worshipped by all the above-enumerated nations, reigning everywhere, adored everywhere, conferred equally everywhere upon all. No king, with Him, finds greater favour, no barbarian lesser joy; no dignities or pedigrees enjoy distinctions of merit; to all He is equal, to all King, to all Judge, to all “God and Lord.” 1225 Nor would you hesitate to believe what we asseverate, since you see it taking place.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030188.htm

[MrMacSon]

.
Chapter VIII —Of the Times of Christ’s Birth and Passion, and of Jerusalem’s Destruction— of an 'Answer to the Jews'/'Against the Jews' attributed to Tertullian -

Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.” 1226 And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, 1227 must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030189.htm

To me, that passage^ reads like an outline to manufacture and time-shift the narrative about the Christ

[DCHindley]

.
Chapter VIII —Of the Times of Christ’s Birth and Passion, and of Jerusalem’s Destruction— of an 'Answer to the Jews'/'Against the Jews' attributed to Tertullian -

Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that “both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin.” 1226 And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, 1227 must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030189.htm

To me, that passage^ reads like an outline to manufacture and time-shift the narrative about the Christ

I am not sure, Mac, that this required anyone to create a time shift.

What I think Tertullian was doing was categorizing passages with a messianic interpretation, as held by Judeans as well as Christians, into two groups: One of which some appeared (to Christians) to be fulfilled in Jesus' time on earth, and that the others describing a glorious reign on earth must then be reserved for a future coming.

All that about computations of times are related to his 1st "advent" (the time he spent on earth already). If one is crafty enough, one can get anything she/he wants date-wise from "scripture". I do not see that he tried to date the future 2nd advent, though, from what you quoted.

DCH (written with one arm in a sling, so forgive typos)

[MrMacSon]

.
Cheers, DCH. I also saw that passage as referring to the 'computing' of His 1st advent, but as 'in hindsight' fulfilling of prophecy (Daniel 9:24 - 26).

I may have emphases wrong with my underlining^^...

...after computing them, shall prove Him to be [have] come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

"..in order that we may believe..all to have been..as well fulfilled ... as foreseen."

[MrMacSon]

.
Chapter VII —The Question Whether Christ Be Come Taken Up.

.... if we succeed in recognising that He has come within the limits of those times, we may without doubt believe Him to be the very one whose future coming was ever the theme of prophetic song, upon whom we —the nations, to wit— were ever announced as destined to believe; and that, when it shall have been agreed that He is come, we may undoubtedly likewise believe that the new law has by Him been given, and not disavow the new testament in Him and through Him drawn up for us. For that Christ was to come we know that even the Jews do not attempt to disprove, inasmuch as it is to His advent that they are directing their hope. Nor need we inquire at more length concerning that matter, since in days bygone all the prophets have prophesied of it; as Isaiah: “Thus saith the Lord God to my Christ (the) Lord, 1218 whose right hand I have holden, that the nations may hear Him: the powers of kings will I burst asunder; I will open before Him the gates, and the cities shall not be closed to Him.” Which very thing we see fulfilled. For whose right hand does God the Father hold but Christ’s, His Son?—whom all nations have heard, that is, whom all nations have believed,—whose preachers, withal, the apostles, are pointed to in the Psalms of David: “Into the universal earth,” says he, “is gone out their sound, and unto the ends of the earth their words.” 1219 For upon whom else have the universal nations believed, but upon the Christ who is already come?

...Christ’s Name is extending everywhere, believed everywhere, worshipped by all the above-enumerated nations, reigning everywhere, adored everywhere, conferred equally everywhere upon all. No king, with Him, finds greater favour, no barbarian lesser joy; no dignities or pedigrees enjoy distinctions of merit; to all He is equal, to all King, to all Judge, to all “God and Lord.” 1225 Nor would you hesitate to believe what we asseverate, since you see it taking place.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/003/0030188.htm

[rakovsky]

I am not a fan of his 'activist' scholarship nor of the theory that Philo thought the high priest Jesus/Joshua from Zechariah was the Logos but I stumbled across a reading of Zechariah within the Christian tradition that supports his theory. From Against the Jews:

Nor will you be able to say that the man (there depicted) is "the son of Jozadak,"338 who was never at all clad in a sordid garment, but was always adorned with the sacerdotal garment, nor ever deprived of the sacerdotal function. But the "Jesus"339 there alluded to is Christ, the Priest of God the most high Father; who at His First Advent came in humility, in human form, and passible, even up to the period of His passion; being Himself likewise made, through all (stages of suffering) a victim for us all; who after His resurrection was"clad with a garment down to the foot,"340 and named the Priest of God the Father unto eternity

Always fair to a fault.

Did you reach a conclusion?
It sounds like Tertullian saw this man in Zechariah, son of Jozadak, as a cryptic allegorical reference to Christ and gave good reasons to think it.
If you check Is. 11, Isaiah seems to use the idea of a son of Jesse as a reference to Messiah, not to David, the direct son of Jesse.