"The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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outhouse
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by outhouse »

toejam wrote:^I'm becoming less and less convinced that we can say that Jesus wasn't viewed as divine by his immediate followers..
There are a lot of errors in this statement.


Fist of all pious Galilean Jews should never blaspheme against the one god. To them "son of god" was a Hellenistic title the emperor first held.

So you would have to explain why Galilean Jews viewed the peasant Jesus as an Emperor, because that's what son of god implied in context.


Next, what did Jesus REALLY do in Galilee that would make Jews turn against their faith in one god?


Had Aramaic Jews viewed Jesus as divine, they surely would have had some kind of written traditions regarding this view. Its not what we see. We see Hellenist perverting Judaism comparing Jesus to the Emperor in this divine status. He is not being compared to yahweh
Secret Alias
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by Secret Alias »

The best explanation here is the Aramaic approach to the passage. Matt 16:18 Peshitta has Kefas, kefa where kefa is feminine. The Greek awkwardly imitates the Aramaic.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by andrewcriddle »

JoeWallack wrote: .....................................................................................

9) The other main argument used against the above is that no one else in the 2,000 years elapsed has made this argument. Gundry points out that the majority of Bible scholars in this time period were Christians who were heavily invested religiously in believing in general and specifically that GMatthew credited Peter as a good witness to the supposed historical Jesus. Of course the elephant in the confessional is that Gundry was forced out of the ETS because of this book.


Joseph

ErrancyWiki
Actually Gundry and the ETS parted company over Matthew: A Commentary on His Literary and Theological Art (Eerdmans,1982), see http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... -42.0.html

Andrew Criddle
iskander
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by iskander »

Secret Alias wrote:The best explanation here is the Aramaic approach to the passage. Matt 16:18 Peshitta has Kefas, kefa where kefa is feminine. The Greek awkwardly imitates the Aramaic.
Yes, it is Kefas.

The noun petra is feminine only in that it takes the feminine form of the article, It is only a grammatical technicality.
Google translate, show that Spanish has the same structure as Greek.
Boulder is translated as La roca (f) or El peñasco (m).
Translations of boulder
noun
la roca rock, boulder
el canto rodado boulder
el peñasco boulder, crag
la peña rock, boulder

El hombre (m) es la roca (f)... , is grammatically correct
The man is the rock
Last edited by iskander on Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bernard Muller
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by Bernard Muller »

to outhouse,
Factually unsubstantiated.

You have a bad guess here and nothing more. Jerusalem was "first" for nothing that we know of. it was not the starting point or center of origin for this Hellenistic movement.

Its why we have no writing that originated there.
Substantiated in Acts, even if I do not agree Jesus' followers started the church of Jerusalem. But "Luke" had to admit the Hellenist Jews formed the vast majority of that church from the very beginning and it was the preaching of these ones which caused the persecution against them, resulting in their dispersion in the Hellenistic world.
Do you accept Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem? If you do, then that would provide a good probability the whole thing started here. And Paul wrote, when he started his ministry, there were already Christian churches in Judea.
Its why we have no writing that originated there.
Why some writings had to be written in the place of origin?

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
iskander
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by iskander »

JoeWallack wrote:JW:

Matthew 7:24

Strong's Transliteration Greek EnglishMorphology
3956 [e] Pas Πᾶς Every one Adj-NMS
3767 [e] oun οὖνtherefore, Conj
3748 [e] hostis ὅστις whoever RelPro-NMS
191 [e] akouei ἀκούει hears V-PIA-3S
1473 [e] mou μου my PPro-G1S
3588 [e] tous τοὺς - Art-AMP
3056 [e] logous λόγους words N-AMP
3778 [e] toutous τούτους these, DPro-AMP
2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
4160 [e] poiei ποιεῖ does V-PIA-3S
846 [e] autous αὐτούς, them, PPro-AM3P
3666 [e] homoiōthēsetai ὁμοιωθήσεται will be like V-FIP-3S
435 [e] andri ἀνδρὶ a man N-DMS
5429 [e] phronimō φρονίμῳ, wise, Adj-DMS
3748 [e] hostis ὅστις whoRelPro-NMS
3618 [e] ōkodomēsen ᾠκοδόμησεν built V-AIA-3S
846 [e] autou αὐτοῦ his PPro-GM3S
3588 [e] tēn τὴν - Art-AFS
3614 [e] oikian οἰκίαν house N-AFS
1909 [e] epi ἐπὶ upon Prep
3588 [e]tēn τὴν the Art-AFS
4073 [e] petran πέτραν. rock. N-AFS

JW:
Here's the offending word again in feminine form, in a previous story in GMatthew that explains its significance, with several matching words to the 16:18 story. What does the "rock" mean here? Someone, anyone, Bemueller?


Joseph

ErrancyWiki
Matthew 7
24 ‘Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock--(petran, noun, accusative, singular, feminine).
Rock as in Psalm 18.2
Psalm 18

2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my deliverer,
my God, my rock in whom I take refuge,
my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
outhouse
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by outhouse »

Bernard Muller wrote:Substantiated in Acts,



"Luke" had to admit the Hellenist Jews formed the vast majority of that church

Cordially, Bernard

Not credible sources for what you propose.


Jerusalem was not the center of the movement nor its origin. To date the movement spread from many places within the Diaspora, and this is not up for debate.
outhouse
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by outhouse »

Bernard Muller wrote: Do you accept Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem? If you do, then that would provide a good probability the whole thing started here.


Cordially, Bernard
I think he was yes.

No, that is not where it started. That is the origin of the martyrdom, but the movement grew in the Diaspora when HELLENIST returned home from Passover in the far corners of the Empire.


In Israel outside of Hellenistic circle, Jesus was not a Messiah he was a failed one with his crucifixion. He never fit the bill of Jewish messiah in Judaism, only in circles of Hellenist who perverted Judaism


And Paul wrote, when he started his ministry, there were already Christian churches in Judea
We don't even know how long he may have even been there, he probably was briefly! but we know with more certainty that he was in the diaspora where he also states the good news existed.

Again there is no one center, and to date academia holds that the movement grew and developed in the diaspora.



I do not doubt there was a Hellenistic house in Jerusalem that followed the movement, and may have had someone that was viewed as a devoted follower. But before the temple fell this was only a small part of the overall game so to speak and was never noted to be any more then an assembly of pious members following Judaism a bit more closely then those in the diaspora, which makes 100% perfect sense due to geographic location.
Bernard Muller
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by Bernard Muller »

to outhouse,
Jerusalem was not the center of the movement nor its origin. To date the movement spread from many places within the Diaspora, and this is not up for debate.
So you think the church of Jerusalem (as evidenced through Paul's epistles) was founded by Diaspora Jews AFTER other churches were established among the Diaspora?
And where would Paul persecute proto-Christians before he became "in Christ" himself?
Did you consider Gal 1:17: "[right after Paul's conversion] Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus."

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Bernard Muller
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Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Pet

Post by Bernard Muller »

to outhouse,
In Israel outside of Hellenistic circle, Jesus was not a Messiah he was a failed one with his crucifixion. He never fit the bill of Jewish messiah in Judaism, only in circles of Hellenist who perverted Judaism
If some Hellenistic Jews though he would be king of the Kingdom to come soon when Jesus was still alive, would they give up that idea after he got crucified? For some, they would not face they had been wrong. And among Diaspora Jews (& Pharisees), the idea of the spirit of a good man staying alive after death of the body was getting more popular in these days (as in Philo's writings about Moses & Abraham).
The one believed to be the future king by some activist Jews could not have been thought to have died by all of those; rather saved in heaven so he could come back, and this time rules.
Hellenist Judaism was not exactly like orthodox Palestinian Judaism. The former were prone to accept new ideas from Gentile beliefs. And Jerusalem, as the center of Judaism, would have religious schools serving Diaspora Jews in temporary residence here, plus visitors among Jews from outside Palestine going to Jerusalem for pilgrimage. Many clues indicates proto-Christianity started among them and then propagated away from this city.
After the Greek dispersion (around 35 CE), the Galileans (disciples and brothers) of Jesus took over the remnant of the church and those, as you said, would not see Jesus as the Messiah, due to their witnessing of a fairly regular human and also because of his death.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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