"The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Secret Alias
Posts: 11756
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:35 pm

Hakeem's comments from 2017 were exactly right.
Hakeem was a mental patient who escaped from a sanatorium in the Caribbean to wreak terror at this forum and its previous incarnation.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Simon Gets Fired As Disciple And Replaced By Simon

Post by JoeWallack » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:49 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7OG4fCbdxM

Verse Definition of Disciple Success Fails Definition Commentary
3
14 And he appointed twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 and to have authority to cast out demons:
16 and Simon he surnamed Peter;
- - After Simon's appointment as apprentice disciple, his name is transferred to "Peter".
8
33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
34 And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Deny yourself, take up your own cross and follow Jesus. - "Simon", presumably the most important target for the author, gets the most name manipulation, not just in quantity but also quality.
14
37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest thou not watch one hour?
- - Peter is asleep on The Job so his name is converted back to Simon.
14
71 But he began to curse, and to swear, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72 And straightway the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word, how that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
- Peter denies Jesus 3 times. Via curse and oath! By denying Jesus and not himself, Peter will not be following Jesus to the cross. Note that the author is careful to show Peter failing all the main points of successful Disciple definition:
1. Denying yourself.
2. Taking up your own cross.
3. Following Jesus.
15
21 And they compel one passing by, Simon of Cyrene, coming from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to go [with them], that he might bear his cross.
- - 1. The replacement Simon meets the definition of disciple success by taking Jesus' cross and following him.
2. The outsider replaces the insider.
3. The name, in typical Markan style, is presented in the reverse of what would be expected. "The father of" as opposed to "the son of".
4. "Cyrene" in Greek mythology is queenish and I think this is what the author was going for. All The Replacements for the major characters in GMark have a positive reference = Magdalene (High), Arimathea (Best disciple), Cyrene (Queen).


Joseph

European Sympathy for Palestinians and Criticism for Israel - Motivated by Morals or Self-Interests?

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9pKQ5N6Qg

Post by JoeWallack » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:34 pm

JW:
We can now add the following to my inventory:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=561&start=60#p105766

GMark Greek 1:16 Background = Calling of Simon/Peter to be Disciple GMark English GMark Greek 9:22 Background = Demon possession and Disciple failure GMark English GMark Greek 9:42 Background = Calling out bad Disciples GMark English Commentary
Note that the approximately same phrases, cast into the sea, share the subject of Discipleship to Jesus in neat order:
1) Calling of the Greeneric disciple Simon/Peter.
2) Illustration of Disciple failure.
3) Consequences of Disciple failure
ἀμφιβάλλοντας casting ἔβαλεν casts βέβληται cast
ἐν into καὶ and εἰς into -
τῇ the εἰς into τὴν the -
θαλάσσῃ sea ὕδατα waters θάλασσαν sea -

Stage 1 of "The Simontic Problem" = An Inventory of "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter:

Major Negative Casting:
  • 1) 4:15 The Parable of the Sower specifically refers to Peter as in the category of Disciple Failure.

    2) 8:32 Peter is presented as the Opposition to the Passion.

    3) 14:30 Jesus predicts that Peter will Deny him Three times.

    4) 14:53-72 Peter Denies Jesus Three times.
Minor Negative Casting:
  • 1) 1:29-31 Sickness in Simon's house.

    2) 3:16 Jesus gives Simon an extra name, "Peter".

    3) 6:3 The name "Simon" is assigned to a brother of Jesus who is presented unfavorably.

    4) 14:1-9 A Simon is presented as a Leper.

    5) 14:37 Jesus demotes Peter by using his pre-Disciple name, "Simon" to address him.

    6) 14:34-42 Peter Fails to Watch out for Jesus.

    7) 14:72 Peter mourns the loss of his life for Denying Jesus.

    8) 15:21 Peter Simon is figuratively replaced as Leader of Jesus' followers.
Connected Verse Negative Casting:
  • 1) 1:16/9:22/9:42 Use of phrase "cast into sea" to connect Peter to Failed Disciple.

Joseph

The Israeli/Arab Conflict - The Balfour Declaration - 1917

User avatar
JoeWallack
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Contact:

Luukeey! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do

Post by JoeWallack » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:46 am

JW:
A common literary technique is to emphasize something by placing it at the end of some connected part of the writing. The clearest example of this in GMark is at the very end. No one in Jesus' supposed time was promoting his supposed resurrection. The rest of GMark is laced with such examples. An important one is The Permanent Failure of Peter. Compare to one "Luke's" editing:

GMark GLuke Commentary
14
53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and there come together with him all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.
54 And Peter had followed him afar off, even within, into the court of the high priest; and he was sitting with the officers, and warming himself in the light [of the fire].
55 Now the chief priests and the whole council sought witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found it not.
56 For many bare false witness against him, and their witness agreed not together.
57 And there stood up certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.
59 And not even so did their witness agree together.
60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and saith unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
63 And the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What further need have we of witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be worthy of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the officers received him with blows of their hands.
66 And as Peter was beneath in the court, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest;
67 and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and saith, Thou also wast with the Nazarene, [even] Jesus.
68 But he denied, saying, I neither know, nor understand what thou sayest: and he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.
69 And the maid saw him, and began again to say to them that stood by, This is [one] of them.
70 But he again denied it. And after a little while again they that stood by said to Peter, of a truth thou art [one] of them; for thou art a Galilaean.
71 But he began to curse, and to swear, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72 And straightway the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word, how that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.
22
54 And they seized him, and led him [away], and brought him into the high priest`s house. But Peter followed afar off.
55 And when they had kindled a fire in the midst of the court, and had sat down together, Peter sat in the midst of them.
56 And a certain maid seeing him as he sat in the light [of the fire], and looking stedfastly upon him, said, This man also was with him.
57 But he denied, saying, Woman, I know him not.
58 And after a little while another saw him, and said, Thou also art [one] of them. But Peter said, Man, I am not.
59 And after the space of about one hour another confidently affirmed, saying, Of a truth this man also was with him; for he is a Galilaean.
60 But Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said unto him, Before the cock crow this day thou shalt deny me thrice.
62 And he went out, and wept bitterly.
63 And the men that held [Jesus] mocked him, and beat him.
64 And they blindfolded him, and asked him, saying, Prophesy: who is he that struck thee?
65 And many other things spake they against him, reviling him.
66 And as soon as it was day, the assembly of the elders of the people was gathered together, both chief priests and scribes; and they led him away into their council, saying,
67 If thou art the Christ, tell us. But he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
68 and if I ask [you], ye will not answer.
69 But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God.
70 And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71 And they said, What further need have we of witness? for we ourselves have heard from his own mouth.
Note that in the likely original, GMark, Jesus' supposed success is given first and then the story finishes by contrasting that with Peter's failure. GMatthew, the likely next Gospel, follows this religious order. "Luke" though flips the order so that the story ends with Jesus' supposed success and that is what is emphasized. As always, evidence that GMark was not merely first here, but first everywhere, as even though "Luke" did not want GMark's main point (Peter's permanent failure), there was nothing else to use as a source.


Joseph

Skeptical Textual Criticism

Charles Wilson
Posts: 1421
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: "The Simontic Problem". "Mark's" Negative Casting of Peter

Post by Charles Wilson » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:21 am

Joe Wallack wrote:"Luke" did not want GMark's main point (Peter's permanent failure), there was nothing else to use as a source.
Most interesting quote, JW.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... literature

You may be on to something in regards to Luke and the Synoptic Basket of Knowledge. As far as Luke goes, he may have had nothing else to use as a Source. Using John, however, shows us that there was something else. The Chamber of the Hearth and the Chamber of the Flames have different Functions, one Holy where only Priestly and Royals may attend and they must STAND. If these Priestly Types need to sit or rest, they go into the Chamber of the Hearth to sit on terraced steps. This is not explicitly stated in the Synoptics or John. The behavior is discerned from the Texts.

Someone had access to other information but it probably wasn't Luke.

Thanx,

CW

Post Reply