Lordship in the epistle of James.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

The following is a list of all of the instances of the term "Lord" (κύριος) in the epistle of James:

1.1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the dispersion, greetings.

1.7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

2.1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

3.8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10a from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.

4.7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

4.13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

5.4 Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

5.7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the advent of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the advent of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. 10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

5.13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

It is interesting to try to decide whether this title is being applied to Yahweh or to the man called Jesus.

Two of the instances, of course, have to apply to Jesus:

1.1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the dispersion, greetings.

2.1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

Then there is a list of instances which, without some subtle argumentation, could probably apply either to Jesus or to Yahweh:

1.7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

4.13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

5.13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Next there is a list of instances which, because of their context, probably apply to Yahweh:

3.8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10a from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.

4.7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

5.4 Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

"Lord and Father" sounds like a designation for God, not for Jesus; the instance in 4.10 comes right after mentions of God, and thus itself appears to refer to God; and "the Lord of Sabaoth" is a frequent title for Yahweh in the Hebrew scriptures.

Finally, there is one passage in which "Lord" at first appears to refer to Jesus, but which probably has to refer to God instead:

5.7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the advent of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the advent of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. 10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

Again, context is key. While "the advent of the Lord" sounds to our ears like the (second) coming of Jesus, James immediately turns around and speaks of prophets speaking in the name of the Lord (refer to Deuteronomy 18.20, for example) and of the Lord who had dealings with Job (refer to Job 38.1, for example). Is James using the bare title Lord both for Jesus and for Jesus' father in the same context with no signal whatsoever of a change in personage? There is one more consideration, as well. This same passage speaks of the Judge standing right at the door; and surely this is God the Father, since we find a chapter earlier:

4.11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

If there is only one Judge, then the Judge of James 5.9 is most likely God. This reinforces the impression that the Lord whose advent (παρουσία) is under discussion here is Yahweh.

Josephus has examples of παρουσία being used of God (on Sinai and in the tabernacle in the wilderness):

Antiquities 3.5.2 §79-80: 79 So they passed two days in this way of feasting; but on the third day, before the sun was up, a cloud spread itself over the whole camp of the Hebrews, such a one as none had before seen, and encompassed the place where they had pitched their tents; 80 and while all the rest of the air was clear, there came strong winds, that raised up large showers of rain, which became a mighty tempest. There was also such lightning, as was terrible to those that saw it; and thunder, with its thunderbolts, were sent down, and declared the arrival of God [τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ θεοῦ] in a gracious way to such as Moses desired he should be gracious.

Antiquities 3.8.5 §202-203: 202 Now God showed himself pleased with the work of the Hebrews, and did not permit their labors to be in vain; nor did he disdain to make use of what they had made, but he came and sojourned with them, and pitched his tabernacle in the holy house. And in the following manner did he made his arrival [τὴν δὲ παρουσίαν οὕτως ἐποίησεν]: - 203 The sky was clear, but there was a mist over the tabernacle only, encompassing it, but not with such a very deep and thick cloud as is seen in the winter season, nor yet in so thin a one as men might be able to discern any thing through it, but from it there dropped a sweet dew, and such a one as showed the presence of God to those that desired and believed it.

Refer also to 3.8.5 §203 (in the tabernacle again) and 9.4.3 §55 (to the servant of Elijah).

And the Septuagint uses the cognate verb (πάρειμι) with Yahweh/God as the subject in various places, such as in Isaiah 52.6:

Therefore shall my people know my name in that day, for I am he that speaks: I am present.

(Daniel 7.13 uses it of "one like a son of man," though, too.)

Other passages, without using an actual cognate, certainly speak of Yahweh coming in some sense. Isaiah 19.1:

The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud, and is about to come to Egypt. The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

I see only three relatively clean options here:
  1. James consistently refers to God the Father as "Lord", and only the name of Jesus Christ (as in 1.1 and 2.1) is enough to make the title apply to anyone else.
  2. James consistently refers to God the Father as "Lord", and both phrases referring to Jesus Christ as Lord are interpolations ("and of the Lord Jesus Christ" in 1.1 and "in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ" in 2.1).
  3. James cleanly identifies Jesus with Yahweh, or God; they are the same person. Jesus was an incarnation or avatar, so to speak, of Yahweh himself. (Refer to another thread of mine for more on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&p=58143.)
Thoughts?

Ben.

ETA: This thread was inspired by a private discussion with a forum member.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
I see only three relatively clean options here:

1. James consistently refers to God the Father as "Lord", and only the name of Jesus Christ (as in 1.1 and 2.1) is enough to make the title apply to anyone else.
2. James consistently refers to God the Father as "Lord", and both phrases referring to Jesus Christ as Lord are interpolations ("and of the Lord Jesus Christ" in 1.1 and "" in 2.1).
3. James cleanly identifies Jesus with Yahweh, or God; they are the same person. Jesus was an incarnation or avatar, so to speak, of Yahweh himself. (Refer to another thread of mine for more on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&p=58143.)
Thoughts?
I always thought that option 2 is the best one.
I noticed that 1.1 & 2.1 are the only Christian verses in the whole epistle, when parts of it are very much Jewish, sometimes even anti-Christian.
The two verses were probably the product of the Jewish Christian Greek speaking author who otherwise incorporated many sayings of James in that letter.

I have a web post on it here:
http://historical-jesus.info/38.html
This is part of the bigger picture concerning James and Peter (and other Galileans who witnessed an alive earthly Jesus) never becoming Christians (because they had no reason to convert after witnessing Jesus):
http://historical-jesus.info/108.html

I think 'James' and 'Hebrews' (along with the main Pauline epistles) are among the most important documents for understanding the beginning of Christianity.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by John2 »

I'm starting to lean towards option 3.

I also lean towards the idea that Jewish Christianity was a part of the Fourth Philosophy, and Josephus mentions that they would not "call any man Lord" (Ant. 18.1.1). Yet they were also messianic (War 6.5.4).

I think the Dead Sea Scrolls could have been used and written by proto-Jewish Christians/the Fourth Philosophy, and it is possible, though by no means certain, that there is a similar point of view as option 3 in some of them. 1QSa, for example, may refer to God "begetting" (yolid) the Messiah (similar to Ps. 2:7), as Collins discusses here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=2393T ... id&f=false

Column 1 of the Damascus Document says that God had "visited them" and "caused a root of planting to spring from Israel and Aaron," and while I lean towards the idea that this refers to the formation of the sect (as Blanton argues), Blanton also notes that the phrase "from Israel and Aaron" (which is used elsewhere in CD in reference to the Messiah) "resonates with the sect's messianism" and that this "root" imagery may be "related to biblical passages such as Isa 11".

https://books.google.com/books?id=rdaTp ... sm&f=false

But however it may be, root imagery is also applied to Jesus in the NT, like Rom. 15:12 ("And again, Isaiah says, 'The Root of Jesse will spring up") and Rev. 22:16 ("I am the Root and the Offspring of David").
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18877
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by Secret Alias »

It is interesting to try to decide whether this title is being applied to Yahweh or to the man called Jesus.
Why is there this stark dichotomy? There was one god on the mountain that the Israelites saw and another speaking from heaven. This isn't an 'opinion' or a 'reading' or 'interpretation' of Exodus. It is what the text says. Jesus (= Ishu) was on the mountain, another god's voice was heard. When Jesus walks by the blind man he opens his eyes and he calls him Lord. Jesus is the Lord of Christianity. But there are two divine appelations for Lord in Hebrew. Adonai and Yahweh are likely then not the names of the same gods anymore than Yahweh and Elohim are the same gods. But why oh why do you continue to go back to old fashioned thinking about 'monotheism' in Judaism? :banghead:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by John2 »

Note also that Is. 19:20-21 refers to a savior in tandem with the Lord:

"When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord."
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8875
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote:The following is a list of all of the instances of the title "Lord" () in the epistle of James:

1.1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the dispersion, greetings.

1.7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

2.1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

3.8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10a from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.

4.7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

4.13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

5.4 Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

5.7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the advent of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the advent of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. 10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

5.13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

It is interesting to try to decide whether this title is being applied to Yahweh or to the man called Jesus.

Two of the instances, of course, have to apply to Jesus:

1.1 James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the dispersion, greetings.

2.1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.

Then there is a list of instances which, without some subtle argumentation, could probably apply either to Jesus or to Yahweh:

1.7 For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, 8 being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

4.13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14 Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”

5.13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

Next there is a list of instances which, because of their context, probably apply to Yahweh:

3.8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10a from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.

4.7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

5.4 Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.

"Lord and Father" sounds like a designation for God, not for Jesus; the instance in 4.10 comes right after mentions of God, and thus itself appears to refer to God; and "the Lord of Sabaoth" is a frequent title for Yahweh in the Hebrew scriptures.

Finally, there is one passage in which "Lord" at first appears to refer to Jesus, but which probably has to refer to God instead:

5.7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the advent of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the advent of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. 10 As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

Again, context is key. While "the advent of the Lord" sounds to our ears like the (second) coming of Jesus, James immediately turns around and speaks of prophets speaking in the name of the Lord (refer to Deuteronomy 18.20, for example) and of the Lord who had dealings with Job (refer to Job 38.1, for example). Is James using the bare title Lord both for Jesus and for Jesus' father in the same context with no signal whatsoever of a change in personage? There is one more consideration, as well. This same passage speaks of the Judge standing right at the door; and surely this is God the Father, since we find a chapter earlier:

4.11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12 There is one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

If there is only one Judge, then the Judge of James 5.9 is most likely God. This reinforces the impression that the Lord whose advent (παρουσία) is under discussion here is Yahweh.
  • <. . . . snip . . . . >
I see only three relatively clean options here:
  1. James consistently refers to God the Father as "Lord", and only the name of Jesus Christ (as in 1.1 and 2.1) is enough to make the title apply to anyone else.
  2. James consistently refers to God the Father as "Lord", and both phrases referring to Jesus Christ as Lord are interpolations ("and of the Lord Jesus Christ" in 1.1 and "" in 2.1).
  3. James cleanly identifies Jesus with Yahweh, or God; they are the same person. Jesus was an incarnation or avatar, so to speak, of Yahweh himself. (Refer to another thread of mine for more on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&p=58143.)
Thoughts?

ETA: This thread was inspired by a private discussion with a forum member.
1. I'm not sure what you mean by "only the name of Jesus Christ (as in 1.1 and 2.1) is enough to make the title apply to anyone else" ...
  • Do you mean 'Lord' is only applied to God (the Father) and Jesus Christ?
2. I certainly think Jesus Christ could be an addition/interpolation in a text not otherwise or not previously about Jesus or Jesus Christ.

3. .. is possible too -ie. Jesus was an incarnation of Yahweh, or God; they are the same person.


So, it may be more than just one of your three options.


I'm always mindful that angel, Lord, and the Man (and other terms) are referred to interchangeably in chapters in both OT and NT books, especially at the beginning of them -eg. the first few chapters of Zechariah, or Revelation 22 (ESV) -

1 Then he [the angel] showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2 In the midst of the street of the city, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his [bond]servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his [bond]servants what must soon take place.

7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow [bond]servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
Note the change in the pronouns from second person in v.6 ('he said') to first person in v.7 ('I am')
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by iskander »

The reading guide of the Catholic study bible says: see attached file,
Attachments
james 1.PNG
james 1.PNG (34.55 KiB) Viewed 7525 times
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3440
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by DCHindley »

iskander wrote:The reading guide of the Catholic study bible says: see attached file,
Isk,

In earlier posts from years ago, I noted a tendency in the Pauline writings to include a form of the definite article ho ("the") with the Greek word kurios ("lord") when referring to Jesus/Jesus Christ/Christ Jesus.

Alternatively, kurios seems to be primarily anarthrous (without a definite article) when kurios is used as a euphemism for God's name YHWH.

In some cases supporting quotations from Judean scriptures did not follow this rule of thumb, as this rule does not always apply to them, are presented without attempt to modify them to conform, even though the Pauline author/editor did rearrange the word order (although alternatively word order can also be explained by use of a Greek translation - there were more than one besides the one Christians ultimately came to preserve as their Old Testament - that used a different word order or choice in Greek words).

But there are a few places, usually in doxologies, where there is ambiguity as to whether "lord" refers to YHWH or to Jesus. Based on traditional Judean practices, it seems that where we would expect "lord" to refer to YHWH/God, it inexplicably seems to refer to Jesus/Christ.

I suppose this is not totally surprising, as the proto-Orthodox Christians were developing a theology in which their divine savior Christ (associated with Jesus) was seen as pre-existent and actually part of the god-head (the eternal divine principals of the Greek philosophers). Seeds of this can be detected even in the Christ theology of the Pauline epistles, although it seems this theology saw Christ as an intermediary angel acting in God's behalf.

Off the top of my head, the passages from Judean scriptures used in support of this assertion in the Paulines can be ambiguous or appear to refer to YHWH or God (El/theos, so assertions that Christ served as the intermediary are just that, assertions by the author/editor of the Paulines. When something new comes along, I guess it is natural to have to find room to place them in the prevailing tradition. Thesis + antithesis = synthesis.

DCH
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by iskander »

DCHindley wrote:
iskander wrote:The reading guide of the Catholic study bible says: see attached file,
Isk,

In earlier posts from years ago, I noted a tendency in the Pauline writings to include a form of the definite article ho ("the") with the Greek word kurios ("lord") when referring to Jesus/Jesus Christ/Christ Jesus.

Alternatively, kurios seems to be primarily anarthrous (without a definite article) when kurios is used as a euphemism for God's name YHWH.

In some cases supporting quotations from Judean scriptures did not follow this rule of thumb, as this rule does not always apply to them, are presented without attempt to modify them to conform, even though the Pauline author/editor did rearrange the word order (although alternatively word order can also be explained by use of a Greek translation - there were more than one besides the one Christians ultimately came to preserve as their Old Testament - that used a different word order or choice in Greek words).

But there are a few places, usually in doxologies, where there is ambiguity as to whether "lord" refers to YHWH or to Jesus. Based on traditional Judean practices, it seems that where we would expect "lord" to refer to YHWH/God, it inexplicably seems to refer to Jesus/Christ.

I suppose this is not totally surprising, as the proto-Orthodox Christians were developing a theology in which their divine savior Christ (associated with Jesus) was seen as pre-existent and actually part of the god-head (the eternal divine principals of the Greek philosophers). Seeds of this can be detected even in the Christ theology of the Pauline epistles, although it seems this theology saw Christ as an intermediary angel acting in God's behalf.

Off the top of my head, the passages from Judean scriptures used in support of this assertion in the Paulines can be ambiguous or appear to refer to YHWH or God (El/theos, so assertions that Christ served as the intermediary are just that, assertions by the author/editor of the Paulines. When something new comes along, I guess it is natural to have to find room to place them in the prevailing tradition. Thesis + antithesis = synthesis.

DCH
Thank you , DCHindley
Does the letter of James say that Jesus is God? The Reading Guide of the Catholic Study Bible, second edition appear to say that there no evidence for an affirmative reply.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3440
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Lordship in the epistle of James.

Post by DCHindley »

iskander wrote:Thank you , DCHindley

Does the letter of James say that Jesus is God? The Reading Guide of the Catholic Study Bible, second edition appear to say that there no evidence for an affirmative reply.
I can only comment that, at least in the case of the Paulines, there was the occasional confusion, which appears to have been theologically driven.

The epistle of James may not have undergone the same type of editorial or publication history as the Paulines. But the two cases where kurios refers to Christ, in a letter where it everywhere else serves as an euphemism for YHWH, does seem to suggest that it was edited before publication in the form we have it.

DCH
Post Reply