On the Marcionite hate against the Jewish God

[Giuseppe]

The first anti-Semite to invoke a blood libel :

Every seven years the Jews captured a stranger, brought him to the temple in Jerusalem, and sacrificed him, cutting his flesh into bits.

Democritus of Thrace, Maxims (460-370 BCE)

If the anti-Semitism was so rooted already in Pagan contexts, then the probability that a Gentile Christian named Marcion wrote a Gospel removing from Jesus his sonship from the Jewish God is simply very high to be put in doubt.

This God of theirs has decided ... to subject all the other nations to the stock of Israel, and has instigated wars for this purpose.

(Basilides)

April D. De Conick, in Chapter 1, “Who is hiding in the Gospel of John?,” addresses the theology of the Gospel of John from the perspective of 8:44 which has been (mis)translated for centuries so that a bifurcated god has been hidden from view. She argues that 8:44 properly translated - “You are from the father of the devil” - indicates that Johannine theology had bifurcated the Jewish god into a malicious sublunar ruler and a beneficial astral Lord. The sublunar ruler was equated with the God of the Jews and the father of the devil, while the astral Lord was understood to be Jesus' father, the unknown god who his son Jesus had come to reveal. This hidden astral Lord was the true God of devotion. The theology of the Gospel of John is a panastral transitional system where the Lawgiver rules earth and the sublunar realm with his son the Devil, while the astral Father rules the heavens with his son Jesus. The author of the Gospel of John is struggling with his community's connection to Judaism and Jewish scripture, undestanding that salvation came from Judaism, but did not remain within it. In the Johannine gospel, Jesus descended from heavens to straighten out the religion, to teach that the just God is a god who resides in the heavens. He is a god of love and righteousness, grace and truth, whom no one knew prior to Jesus' advent when he revealed himself through his son. The Jews think they worship this god, the Johannine author concludes, but in reality they are worshiping an inferior god, the Lawgiver, who rules the world and fathered the Devil.

(extract from Histories of the Hidden God: Concealment and Revelation in Western Gnostic ..., by April D DeConick,Grant Adamson, my bold)

If the 'archon of this world' is a sublunar archon:

The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the archon of this world, will be cast out.

(John 12:31)

...then the historicist cannot argue that his mention in a Gospel would make the 'archons of this age' of 1 Cor 2:6-8 more probably earthly rulers, rather than the contrary.

[Giuseppe]

Pilate assembles the “Chief Priests and the rulers and the people.” The rulers (ἄρχοντες) are brought in because Paul said that the Princes (ἄρχοντες) of this world crucified the Lord of Glory. The invisible Archontes are replaced by visible Jew Archontes, tools of Jahweh. 314

(Couchoud, The Creation of Christ, p. 163)

The note (314) says:

“The Creator, seeing that the Good God was destroying his law, made a plot against him, not knowing that the death of the Good One would be the salvation of men” (Adamantios, ii. 9).

(my bold)

This would explain why the cause of the death of Jesus is a conspiracy of Jews.

[Secret Alias]

I understand that you are mentally retarded and empathize/sympathize with how difficult this must be. But don't you see a qualitative difference in the anti-Jewish hostility between the pagan writers and what you have managed to uncover with respect to Marcion? For God's sake, you just have some modern writer basically fumbling in the dark (as we all are). In short - you can't find evidence of Marcionite 'hatred' of the 'Jewish god' or the Jews whereas I can find dozens of statements and proofs that the Marcionites must have stood relatively close to the two powers tradition that existed within Judaism. I don't say this to try to convince you to see beyond your own mental retardation. You can't possibly. It is like a blind person getting beyond his blindness. I say this for some who might be affected by your repetition of typical nonsense written about the Marcionites.

[Secret Alias]

BTW Megethius is the REAL Marcionite in the Dialogue, Marcus the later caricature (almost a proto-Manichaean) inserted into the later development of the text. The original references to the Dialogue only speak of Adamantius (whomever he was) and Megethius. Marcus and all the other losers were inserted in the third or fourth centuries.

[Giuseppe]

If you're right, then why Vinzent agrees with Couchoud on that particular point (that the Gospel Jesus was the son of the Alien God and not the Son of the creator God nor the creator himself)?

Is the prof also a ''mentally retarded'' ?

Marcion hated the Pagan Gods as allies of the creator God, surely.

I would see a qualitative difference in the anti-Jewish hostility between the pagan writers and Marcion: the Pagans didn't hate the Jewish God as Marcion did. For the Pagan Celsus the Jewish God was ancient and therefore worth of adoration. Not so for Marcion.

[Secret Alias]

Scholarship unfortunately at time trails its way through uncritical re-evaluations of material. 'Marcionism' for instance was defined long before - for instance - Segal's Two Powers made an impact in Jewish studies and moreover rabbinic reports about ancient Judaism had any effect on early Christianity. Over time of course the fact that Jews themselves believed in two powers (owing to a plain reading of the earliest text of Exodus) HAS made a dent in this mentally retarded assessment of Marcion. It just takes time.

It should be noted that one of Vinzent's most influential papers is Marcion the Jew https://www.academia.edu/7547506/Marcion_the_Jew. The fact that Marcion's Jewishness hasn't made a dent in your understanding of Marcionism speaks more for the seriousness of your mental impairment (and hatred of 'orthodoxy' whether 'Catholic' or 'Jewish'). Again I don't think I will ever change your mind given your pathology but I say this for others who might be impacted by the repetition of sheer nonsense on your part.

Again a lot has been written about Marcion BEFORE Segal and the Two Powers. It should IMHO all be forgotten and a fresh examination of the primary sources in light of (a) the Jewishness of Marcion and (b) the Marcionic (?) nature of the two powers testimony. Notice for instance in Adv Marc 4 that Marcion is accused of making Moses more powerful than his God. This is reflective of the contemporary (or slightly earlier) Jewish understanding of the ten commandments being the only 'Torah' that came from heaven. It is not proof of his 'hatred' of Jews. It reaffirms that Marcion was 'in the trajectory' of Jewish thought from the period albeit a Jewish tradition that was marginalized and ultimately anathematized owing to its refusal to embrace Imperial monarchianism.

[Secret Alias]

Couchoud is from the nutty period of Marcionic studies - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul-Louis_Couchoud Put on ignore. Knows nothing about Judaism. How can he possibly know what about Judaism or the 'Jewish god' Marcion 'hated' when he (a) has no knowledge of Jewish belief from the period before Marcion (b) can't read Hebrew and (c) assumes that he can pontificate on a subject he knows nothing about. Sounds like you Giuseppe, that's why you like him. A valiant ignoramus slaying dragons of his own creation and which never existed.

[Secret Alias]

Marcion hated the Pagan Gods as allies of the creator God, surely.

I can't think of a single piece of evidence as to Marcion's attitude toward paganism. I'd say 'enlighten me' but the dimness of your reasoning capabilities can't possibly enlighten anything or anyone. You only succeed in confusing yourself like a dog with a piece of cheese strapped on to its tail. I've said this time and time again. Instead of relying on secondary and tertiary sources you have to begin by acquainting yourself with the primary evidence about the Marcionites. What you do is illogical and self-damaging (i.e. develop a thesis and then make secondary and tertiary evidence 'fit' that thesis).

[Secret Alias]

Anyone who continues to preserve this notion that Marcion 'hated Jews' and Judaism and has affection for this 'Jew-hating' Marcion probably hated Jews and Judaism himself. Such a person is only using this fictitious 'Jew-hating' Marcion as a sock puppet.

[Secret Alias]

The closest parallel that I can come up with for the 'Jew-hating' Marcion is the situation in the American Jewish community and its relationship with the Palestinian-Israelite conflict. Most American Jews came from Europe in the last century and were initially considered to be a discriminated minority in this country. Many were instrumental in the Civil Rights Movement in the South and generally Jews identify with the post Kennedy Democratic Party which champions the 'racial' underdog against the white establishment.

With the rise of a Jewish state in the Middle East American Jews have been put in something of a bind given that their own self-identification as 'underdogs' is challenged. The Israelis clearly are the establishment who (at least to outsiders) seems to be abusing and treating Arab Palestinians in a manner which resembles the way blacks were treated in the South or native American Indians were treated during the founding of this country.

As a result American Jews have in recent times qualified their support for the state of Israel. This has led to the charge by mostly right wing American and Israeli Jews that any Jew who supports the peace process in any meaningful way is a 'Jew-hater' or 'self-loathing' Jew etc. This is especially true with American Jews outside of the American Jewish political establishment. The point is that it is very easy to imagine ways that a Jewish Marcion could have earned a reputation as a 'Jew-hater' without actually being one.