TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

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Giuseppe
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TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Giuseppe »

The book of Couchoud is available freely on Salm's site.

From much time I was very curious about how Couchoud thought the angel Jesus was euhemerized on the Earth.

He writes:
Marcion therefore needed to show that the apparition of Jesus was recent, and had nothing to do with what had been predicted or revealed in the old scriptures of the Jews, but was a new thing. The manifestation of Jesus was a terrestrial fact; therefore the crucifixion must also be a terrestrial event.
(p.133)

NOTA BENE: Couchoud isn't saying still that Marcion invented the earthly Jesus, as possibly Neil reads Couchoud, in my view, wrongly:
Couchoud will say Marcion began to compose his life of Jesus on earth in the late 120’s. If the Tacitus reference is authentic — I doubt it, actually — then it points to Marcion inheriting the idea of an earthly Christ rather than originating the concept
Precisely: Marcion inherited the concept of a Pilate's Christ from the Pagans, but he made it easier for pagans the task of euhemerizing Jesus by displaying the belief in a Christ appeared on Earth the first time only to Paul.


Until there, the French scholar has said only that Marcion had shown a theological interest in a recent apparition of Jesus on the Earth.

Thus he writes:
This idea was to have far-reaching consequences, though the didascalus of Hebrews might repulse it with disdain. The populace straightway took it to heart. Novices of little instruction must have heard of it, Greeks of artistic bent, who took the theological data as a dramatized story. Thus there might come to the ears of some Roman magistrate obscure whisperings as to the mystery of Christ Crucified.
(p. 133)


Therefore the Pagan Romans were the true euhemerizers of the angel Jesus.

The pattern of cause-effect is the following:

1) Marcion: the angel Jesus appeared the first time to Paul, and only to him, on the Earth (still no gospel was written).


2) how a Roman magistrate interpreted prima facie these obscure words:
In 111 Pliny the Younger, after cross-examining the Christians of Bithynia and Pontus, had no notion that their Christ was a real character. According to them, he reported to Trajan, on a certain day (surely Sunday) they assembled before dawn and chanted a hymn to the god Christ, those on the one part answering those on the other. (Stato die ante lucem convenire carmenque Christo quasi Deo dicere secum invicem.) Here it is a question of Christ, a heavenly being, awaited as the dawn on the first day of the week.
2) how a Roman magistrate interpreted secunda facie these same obscure words: Christ was crucified at the time of Paul the apostle, i.e., when Pilate was procurator in Judaea. Tacitus identified the seditious Chrestiani killed under Nero with the Christiani followers of Marcion, by him met in Asia and from which he realized that their Christ was a recent apparition. And so we have the so-called Testimonium Taciteum.
A few years later, in 114, a friend of Pliny, a former consul too, Tacitus, was proconsul in Asia, where it was not unlikely he had to consider cases against the Christians. Still a little later, in 117, Tacitus wrote the Annals, where he said of the burning of Rome that Nero thought the incendiaries to have been Christians, so called after Chrestus, who had been put to death under Tiberius by the proconsul Pontius Pilate. (Nero subdidit reos . . . quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. Auctor nominis ejus Chrestus211 Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem. Pontium Pilatum siplicio adfectus erat.)
It is not likely that Tacitus obtained such information at Rome, for the Roman Christians, if they can be judged by Hermas, were far from thinking of Jesus as a historical person. The comment was derived from the interrogation of Asiatic Christians, followers of Paul, if not Marcionites, for the latter joined the words Christos and chrestos (good). The idea Tacitus had of Chrestus from what he knew of Christians is analogous to that he had of Moses from what he knew of Jews: “Moses instituted new rites, different from those of other men, in order to form for himself a new people in the future.” Josephus’s silence in respect of Jesus is enough to prove that Tacitus here wrote as a polemic and not as a historian.
Pontius Pilate was the procurator who governed judæa for ten years in the time of John the Baptist. In the Antiquities of Josephus he is said to have been very harsh (XVIII. iii. 2; repression of a revolt in Jerusalem: iv. I; massacre of Samaritans), and the Antiquities appeared in 93. He it was became responsible for the putting to death of the Son of God.
Couchoud writes also in the footnote 212 of p. 133 :
Annales, xv. 44. Tacitus imagined some sort of seditious superstition which was put down under Tiberius and reappeared under Nero.
Tacitus identified wrongly the seditious impulsore Chresto (the ''Egyptian Prophet'' ?) of Suetonius with the recent figura of the marcionite Christ by him known in Asia. That was the true act of birth of the earthly Jesus on the Earth.



3) The reaction of Marcion when he knew what the Pagans were saying (that Christ was a Jew crucified by Pilate):
Marcion accepted enthusiastically this popular, pagan idea of Christ’s death; its simplicity appealed to him. It was looked upon as an accomplished event, and was not hampered with a baggage of visions, interpretations, gnoses, and what not. It was eminently readable and, read aloud in the churches, would arouse more fervid faith than the most ebullient prophecy. The manifestation of God, extraneous to the world, could be told in the form of a brief tale of Jesus on earth, concluding with the death on the cross, the sacrifice for the salvation of mankind, which St. Paul considered the essential and lasting act of Christ.
Once the Cross of Jesus had been erected on earth, once the name of Pontius Pilate had been discovered, the details of Jesus’s life soon developed. Each church brought its scrap of good news; here all recalled a prophecy, there a parable, formerly inspired by the Spirit of Jesus, and now ascribed to Jesus himself.
(p. 133-134)

In short, if you are the Pagan Tacitus and you listen about “Christ” only:

1) that he appeared the first time on the earth to an apostle lived recently under Pilate
2) that he was crucified

then your pragmatic and rapid conclusion is that :

3) Pilate crucified “Christ”.

And you would do even more so if you know independently that both Claudius and Nero persecuted riotous followers of a Jew named Chrestus.


The weakness of the theory is that it assumes an omniscient Marcion (who gives the input to the Pagans and after receives and uses their output), but I think that the strongest point of the his argument is to observe correctly that something happened between 114 and 117 CE in the Roman elite if Pliny is witness of a Mythicist Christ and only some year later Tacitus is witness of a historicist Christ.

The only possible explanation is that Jesus was euhemerized on the Earth between 114 and 117 CE.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote:The book of Couchoud is available freely on Salm's site.
Thank you for that link.
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Secret Alias »

FWIW I think this appears to be (at least without having read the whole book) a fairly reckless use of 'pagan':
... pagan idea of Christ’s death
To me at least 'pagan' should be used to describe a religious interpretation or approach to something. I am not sure if there is anything specifically 'pagan' about Tacitus's description. For me at least Tacitus's history is better described as 'secular,' 'erudite' but 'pagan' implies if used correctly implies something 'religious' about the character of the description which certainly is not true.
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Secret Alias »

Another difficulty:
Marcionites, for the latter joined the words Christos and chrestos (good).
They didn't do anything other than 'confuse' or 'interpret differently' two words which sounded identical to one another (because of itacism). Almost like 'figo' (cool) and 'figa' (you know what).

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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Charles Wilson »

Giuseppe wrote:In 111 Pliny the Younger, after cross-examining the Christians of Bithynia and Pontus, had no notion that their Christ was a real character. According to them, he reported to Trajan, on a certain day (surely Sunday) they assembled before dawn and chanted a hymn to the god Christ, those on the one part answering those on the other. (Stato die ante lucem convenire carmenque Christo quasi Deo dicere secum invicem.) Here it is a question of Christ, a heavenly being, awaited as the dawn on the first day of the week.
No, here it is a question of Otho, who has just killed himself. It is presented as a stab wound in the side, with blood and water flowing out, the Battle of Bedriacum occurring at the Po River. Tacitus and Pliny know this.
In short, if you are the Pagan Tacitus and you listen about “Christ” only:

that he appeared the first time on the earth to an apostle lived recently under Pilate
that he was crucified

then your pragmatic and rapid conclusion is that :
Pilate crucified “Christ”.
Not if Pliny the Y and Tacitus were in on the Fiction being created - and they were. The Empty Tomb Sequence is a co-production of Pliny and Tacitus centered around the Death of Otho and the "Empty Tomb" of Otho, coupled with a Joke built around Verginius Rufus leaving out the back door of his house when soldiers - for the third time - attempted to make him Emperor. Tacitus spoke at the funeral of VR, Pliny praised his epitaph. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... Otho*.html
...something happened between 114 and 117 CE in the Roman elite if Pliny is witness of a Mythicist Christ and only some year later Tacitus is witness of a historicist Christ.
The only possible explanation is that Jesus was euhemerized on the Earth between 114 and 117 CE.
Here you may be on to something. The Deification of Vespasian, Titus and Domitian as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit becomes finalized after the death of Domitian. Domitian was voted Damnatio Memoriae just after his death. His Function as the Holy Spirit - the featureless god with no discernable physical attributes - points to a time no earlier than around 95. The awkward "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" replacing the "Baptism of John" when the Baptism of John is itself barely known points to creation of the project's final form.

Pliny and Tacitus work at least with knowledge of each other's work and the creation of the Empty Tomb by one or both of them gets split into 4 parts and melded into the Gospels. 114 - 117 may be correct. The Key to this would be to find the completed Markan Chiasms including the Empty Tomb Sequence in a seamless Tale.

Michael Turton finds problems here ( http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark15.html ):

"However, this structure is, I now believe, wrong. The original Markan structure has been corrupted. Here is my final revision of this very complex chiastic structure:

A And they led him out to crucify him. And they compelled a passer-by, Simon of Cyre'ne, who was coming in from the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to carry his cross.And they brought him to the place called Gol'gotha (which means the place of a skull).
_____B [missing verse? Or is 15:39 a back-assimilation from Matthew?]..."

It appears that Pliny and Tacitus both contributed to the Story and were victims of Interpolations written into their works after they had no control over the issues.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Bernard Muller »

but I think that the strongest point of the his argument is to observe correctly that something happened between 114 and 117 CE in the Roman elite if Pliny is witness of a Mythicist Christ and only some year later Tacitus is witness of a historicist Christ.
How could it be determined the Christians described by Pliny were worshiping an only mythicist Christ from that:
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god
Why would singing a hymn to Christ as to a god implies that Christ was not thought to have been historical, that is an earthly human?

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

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Giuseppe wrote:The book of Couchoud is available freely on Salm's site.
This is good. I will have to read this sometime, in its entirety. (I remember reading parts of it in the UCI library, years ago now...)
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Giuseppe »

For me at least Tacitus's history is better described as 'secular,' 'erudite' but 'pagan' implies if used correctly implies something 'religious' about the character of the description which certainly is not true.
I think Couchoud is using the adjective 'pagan' in context as synonym of 'euhemerized by Pagans' and in this sense is also inclusive of the meaning of 'secular', 'erudite', 'rationalist' (even if, as Carrier explains, it is not really secular, erudit, rationalist, to imagine ex novo, without no kind of supportive evidence but only mere clues, an historical 'god' behind the pure myth and claim it as pure 'fact').
Why would singing a hymn to Christ as to a god implies that Christ was not thought to have been historical, that is an earthly human?
In virtue of the absence of an euhemeristic approach:

Bernard, please do a comparison between the pure and simple “Christo quasi deo” of Pliny and this witness of Herodotus about Talmoxis:
As to their claim to be immortal, this is how they show it: they believe that they do not die, but that he who perishes goes to the god Salmoxis of Gebelexis, as some of them call him.
...
For myself, I have been told by the Greeks who dwell beside the Hellespont and Pontus that this Salmoxis was a man who was once a slave in Samos, his master being Pythagoras...
...
For myself, I neither disbelieve nor fully believe the tale about Salmoxis and his underground chamber; but I think that he lived many years before Pythagoras; and whether there was a man called Salmoxis, or this be the name the Getae for a god of their country, I have done with him.
(Herodotus, 'History.' IV, 93-6)

If Pliny didn't care about the historicity of Jesus (at contrary of Herodotus with Talmozis) then this was because he thought that Christ was only a god, not a man called “Christ”.

Therefore Pliny is at least a bit evidence against the historicity.

Now the mythicist Couchoud notes with great intellectual honesty a point apparently pro-historicity:

Tacitus derived (''euhemeristically'', Couchoud would precise) that this “Christ” - the same “Christo quasi deo” met by Pliny - was a human leader “crucified by Pilate” from the same Christians of Asia met by Pliny some year before (and NOT from the Christians of Rome).

That would be a point supportive of historicity, if not was that instead it is maybe real evidence of euhemerism in action.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Giuseppe »

Imagine merging Pliny and Tacitus in one unique person: you would have a Roman magistrate who finds that the Christians of Asia worship Christ ''quasi deo'', and soon after offers as a personal (Pagan) euhemeristic explanation the (imagined) ''fact'' that this ''Christ was crucified by Pilate''.

It is a very simple explanation: a Roman as Tacitus (if not just himself) euhemerized Jesus by pure equivocation: pure pragmatic need of calling the thing ('Christ') with the his ''presumed'' name (''crucified by Pilate'').

And the Christians did the rest.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: TACITUS euhemerized Jesus according to Couchoud

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Giuseppe,
I don't know why you brought Herodotus. So much remote to the argument about Pliny dealing with a totally mythical Christ.
So Pliny did not say Jesus existed on earth. But he reported almost nothing about Christ, just that he was considered by Christians as a god, in that particular city.
That wording is very understandable if Pliny knew Christ had been a human on earth (and crucified) and just found out he was now worshiped as a god, rather than just venerated.
To be noted: Pliny did not bother to explain to Trajan anything more about that Christ. He probably knew Trajan was fully aware of Christian beliefs and their origins (as many educated Romans).

Cordially, Bernard
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