When the Gospel was Translated from Hebrew It Lost Context

[Secret Alias]

I stumbled across this adaptation of Michael Jackson's Thriller on Youtube and I thought it was instructive on how things got lost in translation even in an age where we have the ability to meticulously copy things through digital technology. Let's start with Michael Jackson's original Thriller video:

Notice that it is developed around traditional (almost saccharine) Americana. The two leading characters (though black)are dropped into a 1950s movie. They are dressed in traditional American attire, engage and partake in traditional American institutions and speak like well traditional Americans. When the scene is transferred to India all traditional Americanisms are gone:

Note that the Michael Jackson character is wholly Indian and is more manly and smokes.

But what's more interesting all subtlety and irony is lost. The original Michael Jackson video is a conscious and deliberate cultural spoof - the traditional American experience of dating and going to a movie. The Indian remake - undoubtedly owing to the fact that Indians likely don't or didn't traditionally have the cultural permission to 'date' in the manner of Americans don't make reference to this 'cultural institution' or assumption. The audience is obviously aware of Michael Jackson's video. But the producers have stripped it down to the dancing and the monsters. There is no longer any irony (most obvious the play on reality and fantasy but especially whether Michael Jackson is a monster). Note also that the word 'thriller' has been removed from the song and has been changed to 'killer' owing to the fact I suppose that 'killer' is more familiar to the audience.

I think the transformation from ur-gospel to canonical gospel developed in a similar manner. Whatever the gospel meant to its original audience of Jewish proselytes these ideas were simply untranslatable into Greek. Instead we get a two dimensional story about a human messiah or more important a 'messiah' who has none of the nationalistic symbolism traditionally associated with this role in its original culture. Indeed the transference or confusion over what is a messiah and what is a god in Judaism is even more indicative of the butchering of the text. A messiah wouldn't look like Jesus. Traditional scholarship says that the 'historical Jesus' has been 'tamed' for Roman tastes. I don't think so. I think the revelation that God has come to earth has been obscured simply because this expectation didn't exist in Greco-Roman culture. Indeed where 'myths' were referenced but not believed in any sort of seriousness. The Jews by contrast must have on some level had the capacity to believe that their god would appear as a man in front of real people. In order to 're-imagine' this untranslatable idea, the story really became about a human messiah (out of what originally was a misunderstanding of the Pharisees and scribes undoubtedly)

[John2]

I'm with you on this one, Stephan. While I'm not sure about the original super-gospel idea (I'm not opposed to it, just still thinking about it), I do think at least Matthew (or something like it) was written in Hebrew and that certain things were consequently lost in translation in the manner you describe.

[Peter Kirby]

As it currently works, the Youtube links want the code and not the whole link (sOnqjkJTMaA).

[Secret Alias]

For those who just want to see amazingly odd music videos on Youtube:

A.

B.

C.

Maybe we could have a contest to say which video is the most unusual since no one has anything to say about the OP.

[Secret Alias]

I think I already found the winner:

D.

Most of these videos come from a Bollywood film called 'I am a Disco Dancer' and this is the title song.

[Ulan]

Thanks for those videos. Great stuff.

I think the revelation that God has come to earth has been obscured simply because this expectation didn't exist in Greco-Roman culture. Indeed where 'myths' were referenced but not believed in any sort of seriousness. The Jews by contrast must have on some level had the capacity to believe that their god would appear as a man in front of real people. In order to 're-imagine' this untranslatable idea, the story really became about a human messiah (out of what originally was a misunderstanding of the Pharisees and scribes undoubtedly)

While I can sympathize with the idea at large, I'm not so sure about this specific point.

Acts 14: 11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices in the Lycaonian language: “The gods have come down to us in human form.” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates, hoping to offer a sacrifice along with the crowds."

This at least speaks against the idea that the capacity to believe that their god appears as a man in front of real people was foreign to Greco-Roman culture, unless you think Lycaonians were not part of Greco-Roman culture or the tale is completely invented and unbelievable.

[Secret Alias]

Yes I should have qualified what I originally said and it might be relevant or at least have special relevance in this election year (in this country). Yes certainly Christianity spread among the lower classes of the Empire and part of this message was that God indeed became incarnate and lived among men. So certainly the canaille accepted the basic idea.

But if we look at Celsus's treatise (which I intend to do once I come back from a shopping excursion) it is equally clear that a political correctness among the ruling class was determined to make it evident that the claims of Marcionite Christianity especially was 'illogical' or against reason (and so the title of the treatise).

I think it goes without saying that a gulf existed between what the wretched believed or accepted and the ruling elite. But the 'correction' of the rabble eventually produced public education of some sort (at least by the time of Maximin if the statement of Eusebius is accepted about the Acts of Pilate). The public needed to be protected from the ignorant and their embrace of 'illogical' or impossible claims from Christianity. Did public education in the Empire emerge as a reaction against the inroads made by Christianity among the desperately stupid? A good question at least.

[Secret Alias]

The monarchian obsession which emerged in the late second early third centuries (and studied extensively by Brent) wasn't just an effort of Imperial subversion. It must have been supported by the educated elite in the same way that complaints about the American school system (i.e. that it leads poor white to 'vote against their interests') by liberals today. If we could just educate the wretched they would abandon their irrational POVs. I think at least part of that subversion effort was made to 'tame' Christianity (i.e. emphasizing a single all powerful ruler) much in the way we see in Judaism and Samaritanism. But I think Christianity's ORIGINAL claims about a divine being touring the material world were targeted even more and the efforts were so successful that we don't even realize a change was made. The transformation was successful. On some level having a divine seed enter a womb and 'mix' spirit and matter into one being was more 'scientific' more acceptable to educated minds (= science) than the original Jewish/Marcionite proposition.

Perhaps this is why the treatise behind both Adversus Iudaeos and Adversus Marcionem 3 (and that lost 'harmony-based' treatise also from the circle of Justin and Adversus Marcionem 4 and 5). The two powers doctrine allowed for one power to co-exist with matter. The 'youth' was subordinate to the 'old man.' The Son inferior (to use the Arian distinction' to the Father. The original reading of the Pentateuch and Joshua was left intact (i.e. with 'god 2' co-existing in a fully divine state rather than a mixed one). This was both Jewish and Marcionite. The 'mixed' claims about Jesus being born from a divine seed and material womb allowed for one all powerful God.

[Aleph One]

I actually found another example in popular music of something that mirrors an issue that's often discussed when it comes to dating the gospels. I don't think it lends itself to an entire thread, but it's interesting enough to mention in the context of the above, IMHO. The song is Notorious B.I.G.'s Juicy:

[Side note: Needless to say, this can be a sensitive topic of discussion for people. In case it wasn't obvious, I bring it up to a serious end, and I'm not at all making light of a tragedy!]

Anyway, at ~0:45 Biggy says:
"Now I'm in the limelight, cause I rhyme tight
Time to get paid, blow up like the World Trade
Born sinner, opposite of a winner
Remember when I used to eat sardines for dinner..."

If someone from many years in the future heard that verse, I don't think there's any doubt they would assume the line about blowing up was joke in extremely poor taste, composed sometime after Sept 11, 2001. In the same vein, we see references to the destruction of the temple in Mark, and assume it was composed post 70 CE. The notable part of all this, however, is that Juicy was released in 1994, and (of course) the line in question refers to the deadly but apparently botched attack on the towers one year earlier (which also makes it a little like the temple's destruction with its multiple 'component events'). On the whole though, I'd guess this kind of coincidence is so unlikely that it shouldn't influence ones certitude with these things very much at all. It does show you strange happenings are possible though!

Added: Actually there are other lyrics there that would lead our future historian to doubt a post-2001 date for it, and put it closer to the correct year, 1994:
"Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis
When I was dead broke, I'd have never pictured this..."
So perhaps a preserved copy of an electronics store catalog could save him/her in this case!

[theterminator]

girls used to diss me now they right letters coz they miss me