IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

[MrMacSon]

..Try to think of spin as a fine, aged Scotch.

• or bagpipes

[iskander]

,,,,,
It is a widespread scholarly opinion that in Mark’s narrative the mission and the death of John the Baptist foreshadows the mission and the death of Jesus - and not only generally, but also in little details. For those who are not ignorant to this it may be not too far-fetched to think about the possibility that also the person of the executioner of John could foreshadow the executioner of Jesus: the speculator his “boss”, the centurion.

The man Jesus seemed to have joined the group led by the man John. Is this all what the " widespread scholarly opinion " you have mentioned in the post is saying?. Perhaps in a new thread?

[Charles Wilson]

It is a widespread scholarly opinion that in Mark’s narrative the mission and the death of John the Baptist foreshadows the mission and the death of Jesus - and not only generally, but also in little details

'N THE REASON THIS IS SO IS BECAUSE "JOHN" IS OF BILGAH AND "JESUS" IS FROM IMMER.

Now plug in your "Literary Formulae" and see what you get.

CW

[rakovsky]

Perhaps more relevant to your concerns is this from Seneca the Younger, De Ira, 1.18:

Tunc centurio supplicio praepositus condere gladium speculatorem iubet, damnatum ad Pisonem reducit
Then the centurion in charge of the execution ordered the guardsman to sheathe his sword, and led the condemned man back to Piso

I did not know this Seneca reference existed, but the internal logic would indicate a directionality other than from Mark to Latin military terminology, and Seneca confirms the logic. I believe it is vital to hone our skills in this kind of argumentation from internal evidence, since most of the possible external evidence is lost to us.

Ben,
I liked how on your website you asked people who Seneca could have talked about as the crucified leader in De Ira:

I asked for candidates for these six victims of anger on the FRDB (formerly the IIDB), and Jeffrey Gibson further submitted my inquiry to Classics-L,
http://www.textexcavation.com/seneca.html

Unfortunately, those links are no longer available. Did they have anything helpful to add?

Your page lists:

Stabbed in bed: Candaules by Gyges.
Struck down at a banquet: Cleitus the black by Alexander of Macedon.
Killed in the forum: Lucius Appuleius Saturninus by a mob.
Parricide: The only suggestion was Oedipus as a sort of archetypal figure, but the one making the suggestion acknowledged that it seemed less apt than the suggestions for the rest of the list.
Throat slit by a slave: Ptolemy of Mauretania on orders from Caligula.
Crucified: Gavius by Verres, or Hannibal (a Carthaginian general, but not the famous Hannibal Barca) by his own men.

I couldn't find anything saying that Ptolemy of Mauretania had his throat slit by a slave.
Gavius doesn't appear to have been a chief or even a regional leader - I just found that Verres was the magistrate of Sicily and crucified Gavius for being a spy.
Hannibal died in the mid-3rd century BC, long before Ptolemy of Mauritania or Pompey (if as I have read in another suggestion, Pompey is meant as one of the victims by Seneca), thereby excluding Hannibal if the victims are listed chronologically as some have suggested.

I made a thread about Seneca's reference here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3974

[Ben C. Smith]

Perhaps more relevant to your concerns is this from Seneca the Younger, De Ira, 1.18:

Tunc centurio supplicio praepositus condere gladium speculatorem iubet, damnatum ad Pisonem reducit
Then the centurion in charge of the execution ordered the guardsman to sheathe his sword, and led the condemned man back to Piso

I did not know this Seneca reference existed, but the internal logic would indicate a directionality other than from Mark to Latin military terminology, and Seneca confirms the logic. I believe it is vital to hone our skills in this kind of argumentation from internal evidence, since most of the possible external evidence is lost to us.

Ben,
I liked how on your website you asked people who Seneca could have talked about as the crucified leader in De Ira:

I asked for candidates for these six victims of anger on the FRDB (formerly the IIDB), and Jeffrey Gibson further submitted my inquiry to Classics-L,
http://www.textexcavation.com/seneca.html

Unfortunately, those links are no longer available. Did they have anything helpful to add?

That was ages ago. I do not remember any more than the suggestions that I posted on that page. The Classics-L thread is here, though: http://classics-l.lsv.uky.narkive.com/v ... nger-1-2-2. I think Ptolemy of Mauretania being killed specifically by a slave (at Caligula's behest) may have been a guess.

[rakovsky]

That was ages ago. I do not remember any more than the suggestions that I posted on that page. The Classics-L thread is here, though: http://classics-l.lsv.uky.narkive.com/v ... nger-1-2-2. I think Ptolemy of Mauretania being killed specifically by a slave (at Caligula's behest) may have been a guess.

Thanks!