IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Secret Alias »

sextarius (ξέστης, quart measure, “pitcher,” 7:4)

Seems not to have made its way into Aramaic. ξέστιον was the preferred term.


qsysṭyn n.m. sextarius


1 sextarius (a weight) Gal. EstR[2] 9.2(14) : שתי קסיסטין ‏ . PTBM10.c:62[2] : מתרתין קסוסטכן או מ׳ג קסוסטכן ‏ .
Greek ξέστιον.

Page refs. in other dictionaries: DJPA: 498b;
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Secret Alias »

flagellum (φραγελλόω, “to flog,” 15:15).

prgl, prglˀ (prāḡel, prāḡellā) n.m. whip


1 whip CPA, Syr. OS MtSin27:26 : ܢܓܕ ܒܦܪܓܠܐ ܠܝܫܘܥ‏ . P Mt27:26 : ܘܢܲܓܸܿܕܼ ܒܿܲܦܼܪ̈ܵܓܼܸܠܸܐ‏ .
Greek φραγέλλιον.

Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1227[592]; Payne-Smith: ~3225; J. Payne-Smith: 457; DCPA[Schulthess]: 339[161];

View a complete KWIC


prgl vb. to warn

quad View a KWIC


1 to warn Syr. MB 12:142 : ܦܪܓܠ ܐܢܘܢ ܡܢ ܕܠܡܐܝܠܦܘ‏ he warned them against studying. (a) to send a denunciation Syr. (b) to reproach Syr.

2 to impede, defend against Syr. (a) to prohibit Syr. (b) to hold back Syr.

3 to whip PTA. KohR[1]8:3(35) : ומפרגא ‏ . (a) to stir up Syr.


quad T View a KWIC


1 to be reproached Syr. BhBS.E Econ 2.2.4 : ܘܕܠܐ ܢܫܪܥ ܢܬܦܪܓܠ‏ and let him be reproached lest he slip. (a) to be forbidden Syr.

2 to be impeded Syr. (a) held back by fear, put off Syr. MB 18:225 : ܟܕ ܡܬܦܪܓܠܝܢ ܫܒܪ̈ܐ ܫܦܝ̈ܐ ܡܢ ܙܘܥܬܗܘܢ‏ the beautiful children having been put held back by their fear.

3 to be stirred up Syr.



Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1226[592]; DJPA: 444a; Payne-Smith: ~3225; J. Payne-Smith: 457;
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spin
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by spin »

Secret Alias wrote:praetorium (πραιτώριον, “governor’s official residence,” 15:16)

The word seems to have been butchered in later Aramaic to

plṭwryn, plṭrwtˀ n.m. palace, pretorium
CPA ܧܠܝܛܘܪܝܢ ‏


1 palace, pretorium PTA, CPA, Syr, LJLA. GT D1.43:18 : וּדחֵלו [גובר]יּא ארום אֶתָּעַלוּ לַפְלָטוֹרִין דיוסף ‏ the men were afraid because they were brought to Joseph's palace. TN Gen12:15 : ואד{כ}<ב>רת אתתה לפלטירין/לפלטין/ דפרע׳ ‏ .


Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1199[574]; DJPA: 435b; Jastrow: 1180; Payne-Smith: ~3130; Levy Ch-W: 2:269; DCPA[Schulthess]: 332[];

View a complete KWIC
Ya know, I pointed all this stuff out to judge a decade ago, when he was trying to flog the Peshitta first crap. (What you call "butchering" is just the phonological constraints of the target language, you know sigma for SHIN, chi for KAF, theta for TAU, etc. Complex consonant structures like the initial sp- in speculator get help, an initial vowel is a common solution, as in Estaban (and Etienne, but then the "s" got lost). Dissimilation of r to l.... All phonological constraints. Ahh.
Last edited by spin on Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Secret Alias
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Secret Alias »

But it also looks like Latin = palatinus and one example (the Samaritans called Gerizim by this name) fits better with palatinus.
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Secret Alias »

But is what is left enough to say that Mark was composed in Latinized-Greek or could it still be that we inherited a Latinized Greek copy (made by Irenaeus) of an Aramaic text that already had a lot of these Latin terms? Why not? It seems to me if you are predisposed toward thinking that our edition of Mark was the original one then everything follows.
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by spin »

Secret Alias wrote:But it also looks like Latin = palatinus
Looks can be deceiving. Think of Latin "habere" and English "have", similar enough meanings, very different origins. You're also leaving out a syllable for convenence sake. Butterfly logic doesn't work in linguistics.
Secret Alias wrote:and one example (the Samaritans called Gerizim by this name) fits better with palatinus.
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by spin »

Secret Alias wrote:But is what is left enough to say that Mark was composed in Latinized-Greek or could it still be that we inherited a Latinized Greek copy (made by Irenaeus) of an Aramaic text that already had a lot of these Latin terms? Why not? It seems to me if you are predisposed toward thinking that our edition of Mark was the original one then everything follows.
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Secret Alias »

Here are all the variants:

plṭwr, plṭwrˀ n.m. palace


1 palace JLAtg, Gal, LJLA. TgJ Ez23:40 : אַתקֵינת שוּקִין וֻמַנֵית פִלטוֹרִין ‏ you arranged streets and established [rd. זמנת w. var.] palaces. BR 1275:5(1) : על פלתורה ‏ †.


Page refs. in other dictionaries: DJPA: 435b; Jastrow: http://cal.huc.edu/showjastrow.php?page=1179; Levy Ch-W: 2:269;

View a complete KWIC


plṭwryn, plṭrwtˀ n.m. palace, pretorium
CPA ܧܠܝܛܘܪܝܢ ‏


1 palace, pretorium PTA, CPA, Syr, LJLA. GT D1.43:18 : וּדחֵלו [גובר]יּא ארום אֶתָּעַלוּ לַפְלָטוֹרִין דיוסף ‏ the men were afraid because they were brought to Joseph's palace. TN Gen12:15 : ואד{כ}<ב>רת אתתה לפלטירין/לפלטין/ דפרע׳ ‏ .


Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1199[574]; DJPA: 435b; Jastrow: 1180; Payne-Smith: ~3130; Levy Ch-W: 2:269; DCPA[Schulthess]: 332[];

View a complete KWIC

plṭyn (palaṭīn) n.m./f. palace
pl: ܦܠܛܝ̈ܐ ‏


1 palace CPA, , SamaritanMidAr, . KohR[1]23:2(14) : איגר פלטין ‏ . GT D1.44:1 : דהוה ממני על פלטין דידיה ‏ .


Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1199[574]; DJPA: 435b; Jastrow: http://cal.huc.edu/showjastrow.php?page=1180; Payne-Smith: ~3130; J. Payne-Smith: 448; Levy Ch-W: 2:269; DCPA[Schulthess]: 332[];

View a complete KWIC


plṭynw n.f. palace servant


1 palace servant Syr.
Greek .

Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1199[574]; Payne-Smith: ~31


plṭrw, plṭrwtˀ n.f. shop (??), palace (??)


1 shop(?), palace(?) PTA, LJLA. FTP Ex12:2 : מרה דפלטרותא ‏ †.


Page refs. in other dictionaries: DJPA: 436a; Jastrow: 1180;


[qwrˀplṭys] n.m. prefect of the palace


1 prefect of the palace Syr.
Greek .Latin curopalata.

Page refs. in other dictionaries: LS2: 1342[699]; Payne-Smith: ~350
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't see how you decide between praetorium and palatinus here. It's a little of both.
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Re: IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

JoeWallack wrote:spin is like God here in that he/she/they/it have been around as long as anyone can remember and no one has any idea what he/she/they/it looks like. Try to think of spin as a fine, aged Scotch. Sure it's bitter at first but it becomes an acquired taste. Anyone who has been here long enough has been bashed by spin but the scholarship is well worth the beating. Besides, there are 3 stages of spin, "nonsense", "rubbish" and "ffs". You have only reached stage 1. I thought you Germans were supposed to be tough.
Yes, Lord. I ask only for a few more children's crumbs for the little dogs under the table. Thanks for the encouraging words.
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