IS THE PROTO-LUKE HYPOTHESIS SOUND?

[Ben C. Smith]

....

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

When you've finished this hogwash about speculatores we might get back to something a little more relevant.

Because it starts to become fun I will make a last exception, spin. I will make it with colours and tables so that also you have a chance to understand the problem.

The data show that in the 1st century BC and probably in the first half of the 1st century AD there is the following situation.

X	term	sources
specific Roman military rank	speculator	Caesar, Titus Livius
meaning of the word/ generic term	spy, scout	Cicero Ver. 2.5.164, Ovid, Amores 1.9, Vergil, Aeneid 12.346, Pliny the Elder Nat. 11.8, Sextus Propertius, Elegies 2.29b, Valerius Maximus, Facta et Dicta Memorabilia. 3.7
function and tasks of this soldier	spy, scout	Caesar, Titus Livius

The data show that probably in the middle of the 1st century AD things changed and it could be now this situation.

X	term	sources
specific Roman military rank	speculator	Seneca, Tacitus, Suetonius and further sources
function and tasks of this soldier	guardsman, executioner, scout, spy	Seneca, Tacitus, Suetonius and further sources

But the data show not that we would have this situation.

X	term	sources
specific Roman military rank	speculator
meaning of the word/ generic term	guardsman, executioner	????
function and tasks of this soldier	guardsman, executioner, scout, spy

The two possible rough translations of Mark 6:27 are therefore

καὶ εὐθὺς ἀποστείλας ὁ βασιλεὺς σπεκουλάτορα
And immediately having sent the king a scout/spy (speculator = meaning of the word/ generic term)
And immediately having sent the king a Roman military guardsman, executioner (speculator = specific Roman military rank with new functions)

But from the data it is not possible to translate

And immediately having sent the king an executioner/guardsman

[Charles Wilson]

Well, this has turned into a very interesting Thread.

1. Bless you, Iskander. You bring up Galba and it is entirely appropriate:
Matthew 7: 15 (RSV):

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

This should be Galba, wearing the Toga. A glutton.

Galba should also be found in GJohn, front and center in the Crucifixion Motif, with his head wrapping separate from his body wrapping. Otho and Vitellius play their part as well.

2. KK --
The important part of Mark 6:27 is that it is a grafted piece. It does not fit the Chiastic Structure of Mark and cannot be formed into a Chiasm itself (See: Michael Turton).
In short, as we move towards the OP's thoughts, there does appear to be some Roman Speculator meaning that is important to the stories.

Keep arguing everyone. There is some new material here.

CW

[DCHindley]

For those who fret,

I have replaced the transliteration table in the previous post with a PDF version.

DCH (off sick, boss)

[iskander]

to iskander,
Good, I am waiting for spin's reply.

Cordially, Bernard

σπεκουλάτωρ
σπεκουλάτωρ, ορος, ὁ,= Lat.
A speculator, prop. scout: but in the Roman Imperial army, 1 one of the principales or head-quarters' staff of a legionary commander or provincial governor (whose duties included the carrying out of executions), Ev.Marc.6.27, POxy.1193.1 (iv A.D.), etc.
2 one of the Imperial body-guard (speculatores Augusti),= δορυφόρος, Suid.
http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi ... .68:10.LSJ


σπεκουλάτωρ
σπεκουλάτωρ, ορος, ὁ,= Lat.
A speculator, prop. scout: but in the Roman Imperial army, 1 one of the principales or head-quarters' staff of a legionary commander or provincial governor (whose duties included the carrying out of executions), Ev.Marc.6.27, POxy.1193.1 (iv A.D.), etc.
2 one of the Imperial body-guard (speculatores Augusti),= δορυφόρος, Suid.
http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi ... .68:28.LSJ
spekoula/twr, oros, o(,= Lat. speculator, prop. scout: but in the Roman Imperial army,
1. one of the principales or head-quarters' staff of a legionary commander or provincial governor (whose duties included the carrying out of executions), 6.27, 1193.1 (iv A.D.), etc.
2. one of the Imperial body-guard (speculatores Augusti),= dorufo/ros, Suid.
http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... oula%2Ftwr&


But in a few cases the meaning is not as clear as it could be, and one could wish that BDAG had gone further. For example, for the word σπεκουλάτωρ BDAG provides no extended definition. It only includes in slightly different form the glosses already in the earlier English edition (BAGD): “prim. ‘spy, scout’, then courier, but also executioner.” It is difficult from this information to see how “courier” and “executioner” relate to one another and to “spy, scout.” What then is the meaning of the Greek word σπεκουλάτωρ? It cannot mean both “courier” and “executioner” at the same time because these are two distinct meanings. Is the meaning somewhere in between? Or are there two quite distinct meanings for this word, which should then lead to separating the lexical entry into sense 1 and sense 2?
The fuller explanation in LSJ is helpful:
= Lat. speculator, prop. scout: but in the Roman Imperial army, 1. one of the principales or head-quarters’ staff of a legionary commander or provincial governor (whose duties included the carrying out of executions), …10

http://frame-poythress.org/extended-def ... h-lexicon/

[iskander]

Well, this has turned into a very interesting Thread.

1. Bless you, Iskander. You bring up Galba and it is entirely appropriate:
Matthew 7: 15 (RSV):

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

This should be Galba, wearing the Toga. A glutton.

Galba should also be found in GJohn, front and center in the Crucifixion Motif, with his head wrapping separate from his body wrapping. Otho and Vitellius play their part as well.

2. KK --
The important part of Mark 6:27 is that it is a grafted piece. It does not fit the Chiastic Structure of Mark and cannot be formed into a Chiasm itself (See: Michael Turton).
In short, as we move towards the OP's thoughts, there does appear to be some Roman Speculator meaning that is important to the stories.

Keep arguing everyone. There is some new material here.

CW

I am only interested in the finished product.
You may like this .
Why Did Vespasian and Titus Destroy Jerusalem?
http://thetorah.com/why-did-vespasian-a ... jerusalem/

[Bernard Muller]

to DCH,
I learned to open the XLS file with Apache Open Office.
Not so direct but it works.

Cordially, Bernard

[Charles Wilson]

I learned to open the XLS file with Apache Open Office.
Not so direct but it works.

LibreOffice. Free, Open Source. Runs on the Platforms, Linux, Windows, Mac, etc.

[JoeWallack]

I think the tone of your comments is rather inappropriate given your half-baked opinions. It is not a pleasure to discuss with you. Therefore this is my last reply to one of your comments.

JW:
spin is like God here in that he/she/they/it have been around as long as anyone can remember and no one has any idea what he/she/they/it looks like. Try to think of spin as a fine, aged Scotch. Sure it's bitter at first but it becomes an acquired taste. Anyone who has been here long enough has been bashed by spin but the scholarship is well worth the beating. Besides, there are 3 stages of spin, "nonsense", "rubbish" and "ffs". You have only reached stage 1. I thought you Germans were supposed to be tough.


Joseph

Son Control - Mark's 2nd Amendment. Was "son of God" Added Later to Mark 1:1? The Greek Patristic Evidence.

[Secret Alias]

But you have to give spin credit. If you are going to deal with the texts as they are and assume there is nothing more or less of relevance he comes across quite authoritative at least when compared with most of the others at the forum. I can deal with spin. He says it like it is. I think we owe it to the lost texts to try and make sense of them and give them 'equal opportunity' as mentioned earlier. But spin's logic is rather consistent. He has the linguistic chops. He's okay in my books.