The X-tian Philes. The Truth Is Outed Here.

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JoeWallack
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The X-tian Philes. The Truth Is Outed Here.

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Mark 16:9-20 is the best known forgery/interpolation in the Christian Bible. Looking at it and considering related factors such as its size, placement and relationship to the narrative as a whole, what are its distinguishing characteristics?:
8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

Verses

9 Now when he was risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

10 She went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, disbelieved.

12 And after these things he was manifested in another form unto two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country.

13 And they went away and told it unto the rest: neither believed they them.

14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.
JW:
I see the following distinguishing characteristics:
  • 1) Reversal of the/a primary theme of the narrative. Here, crediting the disciples with promotion of Jesus/acceptance of the resurrection vs. discrediting the disciples as promoters of Jesus/resurrection.

    2) Strategic placement immediately after the worst of the contradictory theme, here "they said nothing to any one". This minimizes the significance of what directly preceded.

    3) The only significant contradiction of the primary theme in the entire narrative.

    4) Size to make the point clear.

    5) A point that would be critical to orthodox Christianity.
These characteristics then can be used as evidence to consider other possible interpolations/forgery, especially when there is little/no external evidence, such as Matthew 16:18-19.


Joseph

Son Control - Mark's 2nd Amendment. Was "son of God" Added Later to Mark 1:1? The Greek Patristic Evidence.
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JoeWallack
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Re: The X-tian Philes. The Truth Is Outed Here.

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
These characteristics then can be used as evidence to consider other possible interpolations/forgery, especially when there is little/no external evidence, such as Matthew 16:18-19.
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.


18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.

21 From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.

22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.
JW:
Consideration of possible distinguishing characteristics of forgery/interpolation (at this point just based on Mark 16:9-20):
  • 1) Reversal of the/a primary theme of the narrative. "Matthew" (author) inherits GMark's primary theme of discrediting Disciples in general and specifically Peter, more than anyone else. While the bulk of GMatthew is faithful to GMark's prediction and illustration of Peter's ultimate failure (the ending of GMatthew seems ambiguous as to Peter) the offending verses above reverse and show an explicit prediction not only of Peter's ultimate success but of Peter's superlative success.

    2) Strategic placement immediately after the worst of the contradictory theme. Here the placement is not immediately after but it is immediately before = "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men".

    3) The only significant contradiction of the primary theme in the entire narrative. Skeptics here generally agree that "Matthew" has made his Peter somewhat worse than "Mark's" except for the ending where even an ambiguous Peter making an appearance is much better than a Peter departing for parts unknown. The point stands though that while GMatthew is still almost all singling out Peter, as leader of the disciples, for the most criticism, the only significant contradiction to this is the offending verses.

    4) Size to make the point clear. Clearly two verses is size.

    5) A point that would be critical to orthodox Christianity. That a hierarchical authority was established in Jesus' supposed time = touche. Think of this as "Matthew's" (edited) short cut version of Acts.
Conclusion = The criteria above fit well for Matthew 16:18-19.

Bonus material =
Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.
Seems to make the offending verses redundant and later.



Joseph

Son Control - Mark's 2nd Amendment. Was "son of God" Added Later to Mark 1:1? The Greek Patristic Evidence.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: The X-tian Philes. The Truth Is Outed Here.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote:Bonus material =
Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.
Seems to make the offending verses redundant and later.
Matthew 18.18 is in the plural (all of "you"), while Matthew 16.19 is in the singular ("you", Peter). Matthew 18.18, then, does tend to take some of the punch out of Matthew 16.19, right? If all believers in the church have been empowered to bind and to loose, then Peter in particular being so empowered is a bit of an anticlimax. To paraphrase from The Incredibles, if everybody is special, then nobody is.
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JoeWallack
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Re: The X-tian Philes. The Truth Is Outed Here.

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
These characteristics then can be used as evidence to consider other possible interpolations/forgery, especially when there is little/no external evidence
How about Mark 14:28
27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered abroad.

28 Howbeit, after I am raised up, I will go before you into Galilee.

29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
JW:
Consideration of possible distinguishing characteristics of forgery/interpolation:
  • 1) Reversal of the/a primary theme of the narrative. GMark has a primary theme of serious doubt as to whether the Disciples will follow Jesus after he is resurrected. Here they are predicted by Jesus to go where Jesus will go after he is resurrected.

    2) Strategic placement immediately after the worst of the contradictory theme. Bingo!

    3) The only significant contradiction of the primary theme in the entire narrative. Double Bingo!!

    4) Size to make the point clear. One verse is size.

    5) A point that would be critical to orthodox Christianity. [understatement]Triple Bingo!!![/understatement]
Conclusion = The criteria above fit well for Mark 14:28.

Bonus material = Try to find another example in the Christian Corpse where the author's Jesus gives a prediction of prophecy fulfillment the significance of which is immediately undone in what follows.



Joseph

Son Control - Mark's 2nd Amendment. Was "son of God" Added Later to Mark 1:1? The Greek Patristic Evidence.
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