Gday spin,
Thanks for dropping in, I hope you stay around
Peter Kirby wrote:It is a test of the argument from silence. It is not an argument from a comparison to Paul.
Kapyong wrote:That's exactly what it was, according to the very first sentence your own original OP - a test based on COMPARING Rutherford's writings with Paul's as a way of testing this particular argument from silence. But then you declared it was NOT a comparison, for some bizarre reason, even though the whole thread talked about how good the comparison was, or wasn't.
spin wrote:Still operating at the wrong level. This isn't about Paul of Rutherford or whoever.
Wrong.
Peter Kirby specifically introduced this comparison as a test of the Argument from Silence, calling it a comparison in his first sentence, and then continuing discussing the comparison for nine pages with various people all using words like 'compare', and 'comparison' and 'comparand'. Not the slightest hint that it wasn't a comparison.
The thread concluded that Rutherford was a bad comparand.
But when I reported that in my thread summary, instead of admitting Rutherford was a bad comparand - Peter Kirby claimed it was not a comparison at all, but that his argument was still valid anyway !
Now he, and now you, are abusing me as if I am too stupid to realise what the argument was about.
This is the behaviour that Earl Doherty and Dr Carrier noted - when arguing against a mythicist, it's OK to use stupid arguments, because all mythicists are stupid anyway.
Peter Kirby was wrong, but I think he finds it very hard to admit error, especially to a mythicist. How about you spin ?
spin wrote:It's about the fact that an argument from silence is a logical fallacy. As a methodology it doesn't work.
Wrong.
The Argument from Silence CAN be a fallacy, and it CAN be a good argument, IF :
- the author should know the information,
- the author has a motive to mention it.
Which obviously DOES apply to writers like Paul.
You must know that spin, why are you are making false blanket claim that it is always a fallacy ?
spin wrote:That was the point of Peter's effort.
Yes it was the point, and the test used was to COMPARE Paul's writings with Rutherford's. But now both of you are playing silly words games to avoid admitting the mistake. Poor form gentlemen
spin wrote:I'm sure you've heard the fact that lack of evidence is not the same as evidence of lack. See the Rutherford stuff as an effort to show you that fact. You have no evidence for your c.150 claim. You just have a lack of evidence.
Wrong.
My argument depends on the evidence - on some positive evidence (e.g. Papias -> Justin -> Irenaeus), and on some silences, as you like to point out. But it's not ALL silences. I hope you stay around to recognise and acknowledge your error(s) spin.
spin wrote:I've avoided this whole thread up to now as it is pointless and I think Peter should have for the same reason. If you insist on pushing the logical fallacy, no argument will dissuade you.
I am not pushing a fallacy, I am listening to arguments, I am sometimes persuaded to changes my views.
I would like to hear your views, spin. I would like to hear you address my evidence - positive and negative.
spin wrote:And adding ad hominem to argument from silence doesn't raise your credibility.
How dare you sir !
I did NOT attack anyone personally at all.
I made sure to criticise comments, and behaviour on this thread, NOT a person.
While Peter Kirby calls us all personally morons and idiots and stupid etc.
Please retract and apologise for your false slur at once.
Let's be frank -
some of you are abusing me like an idiot just because I am a mythicist, without really reading my posts. Well, I've been doing this for many years, I've had very many adversarial arguments with believers etc. in religious forums, where I'm the non-believer, the outcast, the 'other'.
I thought this place was better than that, which was why I came back here after some time studying and researching, including changing my mind on some issues, looking for some stimulating discussion about some new ideas.
But no
I'm just a 'mythicist' here, and the dominant clique, including the leader, are anti-mythicists. So I can be abused and insulted and ridiculed openly.
Fortunately, GakuseiDon and I had a polite and friendly exchange of ideas, even though we have very different views on the issues. He argued the issues, without abusing me or insulting me, and I came away agreeing to consider his argument with wider reading. Just the sort of challenging and informative exchange this place is known for. Isn't it ?
I look forward to politely discussing the evidence for my argument, here is the current summary :
- Papias 100-130 knows rumours of two Gospel-like writings - by Mark (from Peter), and Matthew.
- Aristides 120-130 knows of a single un-named Gospel, mentioning a virgin, which can be read somewhere.
- Justin Martyr c.150 - has several books 'called Gospels', the memoirs of the Apostles, and the memoir(s) of Peter.
- Justin Martyr dies c.163 - his pupil Tatian inherits the books
- Tatian c.172 - produces the 'FromFour' Gospel harmony, still no names.
- Irenaeus c.185 - first to name all four Gospels.
Kapyong