The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

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Kapyong
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Kapyong »

Gday MrMacSon and all :)
MrMacSon wrote:These points are very pertinent to clarifying early Christian history -
Thank you :) I agree, I've expanded it a little :

Some second century Christian apologists show no mention of a life of Jesus Christ.

A letter from Mathetes To Diognetus c.140 has plenty to say about the Word, the Son of God, but no mention they had anything to do with a Jesus Christ, who is never mentioned.

Minucius Felix' Octavius c.150 describes a Christianity without any Jesus Christ, and even seems to reject the Gospel stories by insisting Christians do NOT worship a 'criminal crucified on a cross'.

Tatian c.160 (just before his mentor Justin Martyr died c.163) wrote an Address to the Greeks describing Christian beliefs in terms of the Logos, the first-born Son of God - without mentioning Jesus Christ.

Athenagoras c.170 wrote a Plea for the Christians which says much about the Logos, the Son of God, but nothing of Jesus Christ. Athenagoras even wrote a lengthy work On the Resurrection in which he discusses Christian beliefs about resurrection - without ever once mentioning Jesus Christ or his resurrection.

Theophilus of Antioch 180-192 wrote an Apology To Autolycus explaining and defending Christians beliefs without ever mentioning Jesus Christ once. He explains the meaning of the term 'Christian' like so (the Greek word means anoint, or smear, with oil) :
' And about your laughing at me and calling me Christian, you know not what you are saying. First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible. For what ship can be serviceable and seaworthy, unless it be first anointed? Or what castle or house is beautiful and serviceable when it has not been anointed? And what man, when he enters into this life or into the gymnasium, is not anointed with oil? And what work has either ornament or beauty unless it be anointed and burnished? Then the air and all that is under heaven is in a certain sort anointed by light and spirit; and are you unwilling to be anointed with the oil of God? Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God. '

Notably, Theophilus was the very first Christian writer on record to describe a 'Trinity', and it did NOT include Jesus Christ :
' In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. '

Theophilus even quoted the preamble from the Gospel of John about the 'Word ', but connects it to the divine principle of Reason, not to any Jesus Christ - who is never mentioned.

How bizarre, how bizarre :)
Theophilus wrote, firmly dated after 180, of a Christianity with NO Jesus Christ in it, and even apparently the first TRINITY with NO Jesus Christ in it.


Kapyong
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Secret Alias »

There is NO clear evidence that Justin Martyr used a harmony. Just speculation.
You of course haven't read any of the pertinent studies in the literature but this ignorance has led you to double down on your convictions. But ignorance isn't an argument. Of course Justin's citation of the gospel are 'harmonized.' There is no doubt about the features of harmonization. They are a little bit of Matthew and a little bit of Luke (from our POV). But the question is whether this harmonization feature was generated from a pre-existent gospel or out of Justin's own handiwork, out of his own innovation. The fact that his student is explicitly associated with a harmony gospel IMHO makes the conclusion that Justin too most likely had a harmony. Please acquaint yourself with some basic facts before you embark on this silly historical reconstructions. You simply don't know enough to make any sort of authoritative conclusions.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Secret Alias »

At some point you should question why it is that you WANT firm conclusions that suit your pre-existent beliefs. Oops. I gave away the secret just there.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bernard Muller
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Kapyong,
Considering the early Christian writings, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the Gospels were not published until c.150.
While I agree the Gospels were probably WRITTEN c.70 - c.100, their authors and origins are unknown, and they remained hidden and private. They were not available to other Christians until Justin Martyr had his hands on them c.150.
What do you mean by "published"? Just because Justin was the first one to use extensively the three synoptic gospels (with some elements of gJohn) in order to expound his views of Christianity does not mean these gospels were made public only then.
For example "Luke", "Matthew" & "John" knew about gMark. Do you think each of these writers were working from the same original gMark manuscript (which you qualify as hidden and private), not yet used to make copies?
BTW, these writers did not say they were using gMark or any already written gospel, and the same goes for many other authors who wrote before Justin: using the gospels for material, extracting from them quotes or paraphrasing parts of them, without naming their sources.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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arnoldo
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by arnoldo »

Kapyong wrote:Gday MrMacSon and all :)
MrMacSon wrote:These points are very pertinent to clarifying early Christian history -
Thank you :) I agree, I've expanded it a little :

Some second century Christian apologists show no mention of a life of Jesus Christ.

A letter from Mathetes To Diognetus c.140 has plenty to say about the Word, the Son of God, but no mention they had anything to do with a Jesus Christ, who is never mentioned.

Minucius Felix' Octavius c.150 describes a Christianity without any Jesus Christ, and even seems to reject the Gospel stories by insisting Christians do NOT worship a 'criminal crucified on a cross'.

Tatian c.160 (just before his mentor Justin Martyr died c.163) wrote an Address to the Greeks describing Christian beliefs in terms of the Logos, the first-born Son of God - without mentioning Jesus Christ.

Athenagoras c.170 wrote a Plea for the Christians which says much about the Logos, the Son of God, but nothing of Jesus Christ. Athenagoras even wrote a lengthy work On the Resurrection in which he discusses Christian beliefs about resurrection - without ever once mentioning Jesus Christ or his resurrection.

Theophilus of Antioch 180-192 wrote an Apology To Autolycus explaining and defending Christians beliefs without ever mentioning Jesus Christ once. He explains the meaning of the term 'Christian' like so (the Greek word means anoint, or smear, with oil) :
' And about your laughing at me and calling me Christian, you know not what you are saying. First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible. For what ship can be serviceable and seaworthy, unless it be first anointed? Or what castle or house is beautiful and serviceable when it has not been anointed? And what man, when he enters into this life or into the gymnasium, is not anointed with oil? And what work has either ornament or beauty unless it be anointed and burnished? Then the air and all that is under heaven is in a certain sort anointed by light and spirit; and are you unwilling to be anointed with the oil of God? Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God. '

Notably, Theophilus was the very first Christian writer on record to describe a 'Trinity', and it did NOT include Jesus Christ :
' In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. '

Theophilus even quoted the preamble from the Gospel of John about the 'Word ', but connects it to the divine principle of Reason, not to any Jesus Christ - who is never mentioned.

How bizarre, how bizarre :)
Theophilus wrote, firmly dated after 180, of a Christianity with NO Jesus Christ in it, and even apparently the first TRINITY with NO Jesus Christ in it.


Kapyong
Lucian was not a christian apologist and also fails to mention Jesus Christ in relation to Christianity. . . go figure.
“It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom11 they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/peregrinus.htm

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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Secret Alias »

Some more things to read about Justin's gospel harmony:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kbe9C ... ny&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Kapyong
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Kapyong »

Gday GakuseiDon and all :)

Great to hear from you, GakuseiDon - hope you're enjoying the wonderful weather in Oz :) Unless you've been flooded out :( Or burned down :( Or struck by cyclone :( Or eaten by shark :( Or mauled by a drop-bear ;)

Did you see I have a real web-site now ?
And I've finally put my ideas together into one simple Jesus Myth theory, obviously based on the work of Earl Doherty and Dr Carrier, but developed further in some areas. You're a credible, sceptical and well-informed reviewer :) I would be thrilled if you could spare the time for a look at my central page - The Paradise Theory of the Jesus Myth.
http://kapyong.info/ParadiseTheory.html

Earl Doherty said it happened in the 'world of myth' :(
Dr Carrier said it happened in 'Outer Space' :shock:
Kapyong says it happened in Paradise in the Third Heaven :idea:

Obviously my work is light-years away from the scholarship of Dr Carrier, or even Earl Doherty, but my main goal is to clearly explain the Jesus Myth theory to those who know little, but don't want to read a huge book.

In terms of what I have actually added, it amounts to little :
  1. Jesus Christ originally seen as crucified in Paradise in the Third Heaven
  2. The slow, staged arrival of Jesus Christ beliefs allowed the late historical Gospel stories to enhance and fill-in and supplant the earlier spiritual-only views.
  3. The docetic phantasm or illusionary Jesus Christ was the confused amalgamated result of :
  • the LATER Gospel stories of a Jesus Christ who visited Earth c.150, crashing into
  • the EARLIER heavenly spiritual-only Jesus Christ beliefs (e.g. Paul)
Resulting in : a bizarre spiritual Jesus Christ who visited Earth - the docetic phantasm.

If you gave me some feed-back, both on the quality and clarity and conciseness of the writing, and the theory too - that would be very much appreciated :thumbup:


Kapyong
(So would a decent online editor :whistling: But I'm learning as I go :) )
Last edited by Kapyong on Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by MrMacSon »

.
I would emphasis the Apology of Aristides differently to GakuseiDon -
GakuseiDon wrote:
... the Apology of Aristides: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... s-kay.html ... around 120-130 CE:
  • ... And it is said that God came down from heaven and, from a Hebrew virgin, assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it.
Regarding -
GakuseiDon wrote:
  • "And you also if you will read therein" suggests to me a document that Aristides expects to be available publicly at that time.
- I'd read it this way -
  • "And you also if you will read therein may perceive the power which belongs to it"
I would also read this differently -
GakuseiDon wrote: Other snippets from Aristides:
  • But the Christians, O King, while they went about and made search, have found the truth; and as we learned from their writings, they have come nearer to truth and genuine knowledge than the rest of the nations...

    And as for their words and their precepts, O King, and their glorying in their worship, and the hope of earning according to the work of each one of them their recompense which they look for in another world1,-you may learn about these from their writings...

    Take, then, their writings, and read therein, and lo! you will find that I have not put forth these things on my own authority, nor spoken thus as their advocate; but since I read in their writings I was fully assured of these things as also of things which are to come...

    Thus far, O King, I have spoken; for concerning that which remains, as is said above, there are found in their other writings things which are hard to utter and difficult for one to narrate,--which are not only spoken in words. but also wrought out in deeds...
"the hope of earning, according to the work of each one of them ... they look for in another world" has connotations of a Diaspora in another place/world.
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Kapyong
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by Kapyong »

Gday GakuseiDon and all :)
GakuseiDon wrote:In other words, Jesus is a man.
I am glad we agree :)
The author of Hebrews, and Paul similarly, thought Jesus Christ was a man.
But then, they also thought he was the Son of God too.

Being a man does not necessarily mean a physical historical man, any more than being a Son of God necessarily means a purely divine being. A man who is the Son of God can exist in heaven. It's a similar argument concerning Jesus Christ being 'born of woman' or being a 'Jew' - as if they can only be historical references.

But it's not so -
none of those attributes requires being physical and historical at all :

Firstly, consider the Wandering 'Jew' - a mythical immortal being with many tales told. Sometimes called Ahasuerus (from Xerxes maybe.) Jewish, but not historical.

Now consider a man who is born of woman - of course that can be non-historical and Paul says so :

Paul's letter to the Galatians 4:1 which is frequently cited as evidence for a historical Jesus -

' Gal 4:1 I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God. '

That is clearly all metaphors - 'no longer a slave, but a son'. The mother is a metaphor too, it certainly isn't Mary. Paul goes on to describe an allegory of mothers and sons :

Gal 4:22 ' For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.'

Here we see explicit allegory about two contrasting mothers :
  1. Hagar, under the slavery of the law, who is an allegory of 'Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem'
  2. Jerusalem above, an allegory who 'is free, and she is our mother'.
Paul is saying :
  • Jesus Christ the son-of-God was born allegorically to Hagar, in slavery, under the law, according to the flesh, in the earthly Jerusalem.
  • Christians are re-born allegorically in Jerusalem above, to become sons and heirs.
It's an allegory, and nothing to do with history.

Kapyong
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Re: The Gospels Were Not Published Until c.150

Post by GakuseiDon »

Kapyong wrote:Gday GakuseiDon and all :)

Great to hear from you, GakuseiDon - hope you're enjoying the wonderful weather in Oz :) Unless you've been flooded out :( Or burned down :( Or struck by cyclone :( Or eaten by shark :( Or mauled by a drop-bear ;)
The weather here is almost apocalyptic: rains and very strong winds for the last few weeks. Trees crashing down through houses and parked cars. Yet it is supposed to be spring. :(
Kapyong wrote:Did you see I have a real web-site now ?
And I've finally put my ideas together into one simple Jesus Myth theory, obviously based on the work of Earl Doherty and Dr Carrier, but developed further in some areas. You're a credible, sceptical and well-informed reviewer :) I would be thrilled if you could spare the time for a look at my central page - The Paradise Theory of the Jesus Myth.
http://kapyong.info/ParadiseTheory.html

Earl Doherty said it happened in the 'world of myth' :(
Dr Carrier said it happened in 'Outer Space' :shock:
Kapyong says it happened in Paradise in the Third Heaven :idea:
I had a look at your webpage. I don't have time to critique it I'm sorry; but off-hand, I like your idea better than Dr Carrier's "outer space" -- which is so vague as to be useless, since the term incorporates the lower heavens and the upper heavens -- and Doherty's "world of myth", which IMHO is not an idea that can be found in ancient texts. But a non-Platonic "Paradise in the Third Heaven" might work, since it incorporates non-heavenly and heavenly elements.

Most of the remaining ideas on your webpage I have problems with, I'm afraid. But I'm pretty sure we've covered those ideas in the past, so you know where I'm coming from. I've found you to be an honest seeker of truth, and wish you well in the development of your theory!
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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