Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Bernard Muller »

to spin,
Martin's comments seem to be based on Tacitus not relating what happened to the head of Galba after his murder: "Ronald H. Martin writes of Tacitus' choice not to cite the gruesome detail of Galba's head in his Histories"

Here is the passage in question:
41. On catching sight of the approaching party of armed men, an ensign belonging to the cohort which formed Galba's escort — Atilius Vergilio, according to the tradition — ripped from his standard the effigy of Galba and dashed it to the ground, a clear indication that all the troops supported Otho. It was also a signal for a mass exodus of the civilian populace from the Forum. Swords were drawn to deal with recalcitrants. Near the Basin of Curtius, the panic of his bearers caused Galba to be flung sprawling from his chair. His last words are variously recorded by the conflicting voices of hatred and admiration. Some say that he grovelled, and asked what he had done to deserve his fate, begging a few days' grace to pay the bounty. The majority of the historians believe that he voluntarily bared his throat to the assassins, telling them to strike and be done with it, if this was what seemed best for the country. Little did the murderers care what he said.

The identity of the killer is in doubt. Some authorities speak of a veteran called Terentius. Others mention one Laecanius. The more usual version holds that a soldier of the Fifteenth Legion named Camurius thrust his sword deep into Galba's throat. The rest of them, with revolting butchery, hacked at his legs and arms, as these (un-like his body) were not protected by armour. These sadistic monsters even inflicted a number of wounds on the already truncated torso.


What I bolded shows that Tacitus was also very graphic about the murder of Galba, told with "gruesome detail". Even if Tacitus did not give details about the head of Galba after his death, that does not mean he was restrained about describing gory details. Because he did tell about some of these in his Histories for the murder of Galba.

Yes, I am more convinced than ever that Tacitus wrote the gruesome details about the tortures to death of Christians under Nero.

Cordially, Bernard
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spin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by spin »

Bernard Muller wrote:to spin,
Martin's comments seem to be based on Tacitus not relating what happened to the head of Galba after his murder: "Ronald H. Martin writes of Tacitus' choice not to cite the gruesome detail of Galba's head in his Histories"

Here is the passage in question:
41. On catching sight of the approaching party of armed men, an ensign belonging to the cohort which formed Galba's escort — Atilius Vergilio, according to the tradition — ripped from his standard the effigy of Galba and dashed it to the ground, a clear indication that all the troops supported Otho. It was also a signal for a mass exodus of the civilian populace from the Forum. Swords were drawn to deal with recalcitrants. Near the Basin of Curtius, the panic of his bearers caused Galba to be flung sprawling from his chair. His last words are variously recorded by the conflicting voices of hatred and admiration. Some say that he grovelled, and asked what he had done to deserve his fate, begging a few days' grace to pay the bounty. The majority of the historians believe that he voluntarily bared his throat to the assassins, telling them to strike and be done with it, if this was what seemed best for the country. Little did the murderers care what he said.

The identity of the killer is in doubt. Some authorities speak of a veteran called Terentius. Others mention one Laecanius. The more usual version holds that a soldier of the Fifteenth Legion named Camurius thrust his sword deep into Galba's throat. The rest of them, with revolting butchery, hacked at his legs and arms, as these (un-like his body) were not protected by armour. These sadistic monsters even inflicted a number of wounds on the already truncated torso.


What I bolded shows that Tacitus was also very graphic about the murder of Galba, told with "gruesome detail". Even if Tacitus did not give details about the head of Galba after his death, that does not mean he was restrained about describing gory details. Because he did tell about some of these in his Histories for the murder of Galba.

Yes, I am more convinced than ever that Tacitus wrote the gruesome details about the tortures to death of Christians under Nero.

Cordially, Bernard
Besides showing that you know how to use bolding, you still haven't shown much in the reading department. Gosh, "bared his throat to the assassins"! Note the lurid nature of the simple "thrust his sword deep into Galba's throat" or "hacked at his legs and arms" (those gory details!) and the shockingness of "revolting butchery" and "sadistic monsters": I can understand you bolding them!

What you did was demonstrate the correctness of Martin's comment regarding Tacitus, "His practice elsewhere suggests that he judged it beneath the dignity of history to record such sordid events." Tacitus was condemning the assassins. His treatment of Galba is interesting in that he gives negative criticism circulating regarding Galba, which he undercuts by reporting Galba beared his throat. In contrast, the murderers didn't care what he said and showed no respect for his corpse. He doesn't go into much detail at all, merely implying that the head had left the body. Nothing is superfluous to the narrative. No added gore value. Just criticism of his attackers, those who hacked at his arms and legs and wounded the body, "the sadistic monsters" (though that seems to have merely been a translator's flourish).

Here's another commentator's view on this specific passage: "Tacitus passes over the details that are too realistic and beneath the mantle of the historian. In Suetonius (Galba, 20) we read that a soldier cut Galba's head from his body and, unable to raise it by the hair due to Galba's baldness, stuck a finger in the mouth and carried it thus to Otho. More or less the same horror-show details are also in Plutarch (Galba, 27). The tragic brevity of Tacitus makes one recall the death of Priam in the AEneid...." (From my copy of Tacitus Histories, comment by Luciano Lenaz, (Milan: BUR, 2004), in vol.1, 161.)
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Charles Wilson »

John 19: 23 (RSV):

[23] When the soldiers had crucified Jesus they took his garments and made four parts, one for each soldier; also his tunic. But the tunic was without seam, woven from top to bottom

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Galba":

"He [Galba] did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many swords
*****
"He was killed beside the Lake of Curtius and was left lying just as he was, until a common soldier, returning from a distribution of grain, threw down his load and cut off the head.
...
From these it was bought by a freedman of Patrobius Neronianus for a hundred pieces of gold and thrown aside in the place where his patron had been executed by Galba's order. At last, however, his steward Argivus consigned it to the tomb with the rest of the body in Galba's private gardens on the Aurelian Road."

John 20: 6 -7 (RSV):

[6] Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying,
[7] and the napkin, which had been on his head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself.

Note finally that there is "another garden" here beyond Nero's garden. If Tacitus had a hand in this material then we would expect something such as this. The use of the word Soudarian may be a pointer in that direction.
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by spin »

Charles Wilson wrote:"He [Galba] did however put on a linen cuirass,
Linothorax
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Spin,
Suetonius, besides the story of Galba's head, is a lot more restrained than Tacitus about the description of Galba's murder:

Then they rushed upon him again and butchered him, abandoned by his followers.

[Legamen ad paginam Latinam] Some say that at the beginning of the disturbance he cried out, "What mean you, fellow soldiers? I am yours and you are mine," and that he even promised them largess. But the more general account is, that he offered them his neck without resistance, urging them to do their duty and strike, since it was their will. It might seem very surprising that none of those present tried to lend aid to their emperor, and that all who were sent for treated the summons with contempt except a company of German troops. These, because of his recent kindness in showing them great indulgence when they were weakened by illness, flew to his help, but through their unfamiliarity with the city took a roundabout way and arrived too late.

He was killed beside the Lake of Curtius and was left lying just as he was, until a common soldier, returning from a distribution of grain, threw down his load and cut off the head. Then, since there was no hair by which to grasp it, he put it under his robe, but later thrust his thumb into the mouth and so carried it to Otho. He handed it over to his servants and camp-followers, who set it on a lance and paraded it about the camp with jeers, crying out from time to time, "Galba, thou Cupid, exult in thy vigour!" The special reason for this saucy jest was, that the report had gone abroad a few days before, that when someone had congratulated him on still looking young and vigorous, he replied: "As yet my strength is unimpaired."


Cordially, Bernard
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spin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by spin »

Bernard Muller wrote:to Spin,
Suetonius, besides the story of Galba's head, is a lot more restrained than Tacitus about the description of Galba's murder
Nonsense, Bernard. You can't assume any restraint on Suetonius's part. It is more probable that he had less general information than Tacitus. He tends consistently to be briefer than Tacitus, except when it comes to sources regarding the juicier details. So do continue this knee-jerk time wasting, but I won't be joining you further.
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

spin wrote:
I think that spin made some really good points. On the other hand it might suggest not only "to some", but rather to many "that christians couldn't write such things about christians"
Why? Were christian scribes not self-critical, aware of the range of antagonistic views out there, nor capable of writing such things down?
I discuss only method. I think the case in favor of an interpolation should not ask: "Were christian scribes not capable of writing such things down?" There should be evidence and a few examples that they were in fact capable.
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spin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by spin »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
spin wrote:
I think that spin made some really good points. On the other hand it might suggest not only "to some", but rather to many "that christians couldn't write such things about christians"
Why? Were christian scribes not self-critical, aware of the range of antagonistic views out there, nor capable of writing such things down?
I discuss only method. I think the case in favor of an interpolation should not ask: "Were christian scribes not capable of writing such things down?" There should be evidence and a few examples that they were in fact capable.
I only needed to ask "why?" That is your burden. My ulterior question was only for focus and added later. For some reason you made an assertion about what a writer is unlikely to do, which seems unsustainable.
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iskander
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by iskander »

Arnaldo Momigliano
Momigliano was born on 5 September 1908 in Caraglio, Piedmont. In 1936 he became Professor of Roman history at the University of Turin, but as a Jew soon lost his position due to the anti-Jewish Racial Laws enacted by the Fascist regime in 1938, and moved to England, where he remained. After a time at Oxford University, he went to University College London, where he was Professor from 1951 to 1975. Momigliano visited regularly at the University of Chicago where he was named Alexander White Professor in the Humanities, and at the Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaldo_Momigliano


Momiglano wrote this, see attached file
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Djv ... 22&f=false
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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

spin wrote:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
spin wrote:Why? Were christian scribes not self-critical, aware of the range of antagonistic views out there, nor capable of writing such things down?
I discuss only method. I think the case in favor of an interpolation should not ask: "Were christian scribes not capable of writing such things down?" There should be evidence and a few examples that they were in fact capable.
I only needed to ask "why?" That is your burden. My ulterior question was only for focus and added later. For some reason you made an assertion about what a writer is unlikely to do, which seems unsustainable.
No, I say only my opinion while thinking about what a case for an interpolation could be. Feel free to think that you have done it.
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