Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

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iskander
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote:Arnaldo Momigliano
Momigliano was born on 5 September 1908 in Caraglio, Piedmont. In 1936 he became Professor of Roman history at the University of Turin, but as a Jew soon lost his position due to the anti-Jewish Racial Laws enacted by the Fascist regime in 1938, and moved to England, where he remained. After a time at Oxford University, he went to University College London, where he was Professor from 1951 to 1975. Momigliano visited regularly at the University of Chicago where he was named Alexander White Professor in the Humanities, and at the Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaldo_Momigliano


Momiglano wrote this, see attached file
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Djv ... 22&f=false
Levy applied superstitio to the penetration of foreign cults into early Rome or to the excessive trust in prodigia at the end of the second Punic war.12 Tacitus speaks , inter alia of Christianity as exitiabilis superstitio 13 and of the superstitio vana of the Druids.14
Essays in Ancient and Modern Historiography
Arnaldo Momigliano
University of Chicago Press, 15 Jul 2012 - History - 387 pages
10 Popular Religious Beliefs and the Late Roman Historians
page 144
13 Annals, XV, 44, 5.
14 Histories, ,IV . 54.
This thread might be of some interest
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=650&hilit=syme&start=110
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spin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by spin »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:
spin wrote:Why? Were christian scribes not self-critical, aware of the range of antagonistic views out there, nor capable of writing such things down?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: I discuss only method. I think the case in favor of an interpolation should not ask: "Were christian scribes not capable of writing such things down?" There should be evidence and a few examples that they were in fact capable.
spin wrote: I only needed to ask "why?" That is your burden. My ulterior question was only for focus and added later. For some reason you made an assertion about what a writer is unlikely to do, which seems unsustainable.
No, I say only my opinion while thinking about what a case for an interpolation could be. Feel free to think that you have done it.
All unsupported assertions are opinions. Thanks for your opinion.
Dysexlia lures • ⅔ of what we see is behind our eyes
Charles Wilson
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Charles Wilson »

spin wrote:
Charles Wilson wrote:"He [Galba] did however put on a linen cuirass,
Linothorax
Thank you very much for that, spin.

The question becomes whether Galba made it into the "Historical Part" of the NT. I know that there will be a sizable percentage of readers who will say that there cannot be references to Galba since the NT is about "Jesus". OK. Fine.
Consider, however, what would be the facts if the assumption of "Galba in the NT" had Truth Value:

Matthew 7: 15 (RSV):

[15] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves...

"False Prophets" => Emperor Galba and notice "Prophets" => PLURAL
"who come to you" => Marching from Spain, perhaps (Weak supposition at this point)
"sheep's clothing" => Here's where it begins to get interesting. The Toga, symbol of a Roman statesman, is a piece of clothing made from wool
"inwardly are ravenous wolves" => Galba, the glutton, succeeded by Otho. Vespasian swore his allegiance to Otho. At the assassination of Otho, the advisors, (and Mucianus), convince Vespasian to march on Rome. "Wolves" => PLURAL

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Galba":

"He then began his march to Rome in a general's cloak with a dagger hanging from his neck in front of his breast; and he did not resume the toga until he had overthrown those who were plotting against him..."

Which brings us to the curious passages of John and "Galba" (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirass et.al.):

"Not long after this he learned that Otho held possession of the Camp, and when several advised him to proceed thither as soon as possible — for they said that he could win the day by his presence and prestige — he decided to do no more than hold his present position and strengthen it by getting together a guard of the legionaries, who were encamped in many different quarters of the city. He did however put on a linen cuirass, though he openly declared that it would afford little protection against so many swords..."

John 19: 23 (RSV):

[23] When the soldiers had crucified Jesus they took his garments and made four parts, one for each soldier; also his tunic. But the tunic was without seam, woven from top to bottom

From spin's Post we see that the Linothorax could be a complicated affair as is seen also in literature on the cuirass. A functioning Cuirass would have had some heft to it. It would not have been a linen T-Shirt with a Walmart sign printed on the front. Similarly, Galba stating something like, "I'll just take this Cuirass off the rack here 'n put it on" doesn't give the gravity of the situation. Galba is facing death and insurrection and he appears to know it.

It is easy to state then that the seamless garment of "Jesus" might not be a Cuirass. If that was as far as it went, maybe that would be the correct conclusion. As usual, however, there is more (verse 24 in part):


[24] so they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be..."

Interesting but the Pointer here looks elsewhere. How many soldiers were there?

Tacitus, Histories, Book 4:

Mucianus entered the camp to examine more accurately the individual claims. The victorious army, wearing their proper decorations and arms, he drew up with moderate intervals of space between the divisions; then the Vitellianists, whose capitulation at Bovillae I have already related, and the other troops of the party, who had been collected from the capital and its neighbourhood, were brought forth almost naked. Mucianus ordered these men to be drawn up apart, making the British, the German, and any other troops that there were belonging to other armies, take up separate positions. The very first view of their situation paralyzed them. They saw opposed to them what seemed a hostile array, threatening them with javelin and sword. They saw themselves hemmed in, without arms, filthy and squalid. And when they began to be separated, some to be marched to one spot, and some to another, a thrill of terror ran through them all. Among the troops from Germany the panic was particularly great; for they believed that this separation marked them out for slaughter. They embraced their fellow soldiers, clung to their necks, begged for parting kisses, and entreated that they might not be deserted, or doomed in a common cause to suffer a different lot. They invoked now Mucianus, now the absent Emperor, and, as a last resource, heaven and the Gods, till Mucianus came forward, and calling them "soldiers bound by the same oath and servants of the same Emperor," stopped the groundless panic. And indeed the victorious army seconded the tears of the vanquished with their approving shouts. This terminated the proceedings for that day..."

How many groups are there? Does it matter? It turns out that it doesn't in an absolute sense. They were all "soldiers bound by the same oath and servants of the same Emperor".

Thus, Tacitus appears to play a great, if unseen, role in the construction of the NT.

CW
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote:For my part, I am open to the Testimonium Taciteum being an interpolation, but am not by any means sure in either direction. I am still considering the case made on each side. Perhaps future discussions on the matter here on this forum will persuade me one way or the other. (I believe it goes without saying that, if you have additional evidence to present, you are by all means welcome to present it here.)
I checked a few words, phrases and themes. I found nothing suspicious. Two examples

phrase
Annales, book 15, chapter 44 Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius (Tiberio imperitante)

book 3, chapter 24: ... amicitia Caesaris prohiberetur, exilium sibi demonstrari intellexit, nec nisi Tiberio imperitante deprecari senatum ac principem ausus est M. Silani fratris
book 4, chapter 62: ... sed in sordidam mercedem id negotium quaesivisset. adfluxere avidi talium, imperitante Tiberio procul voluptatibus habiti, virile ac muliebre secus, omnis
book 13, chapter 32: ... nisi lugubri, non animo nisi maesto egit; idque illi imperitante Claudio impune, mox ad gloriam vertit.
book 13, chapter 42: ... haud tamen sine invidia Senecae damnatur. is fuit P. Suillius, imperitante Claudio terribilis ac venalis et mutatione temporum non quantum

theme
again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Ronald Mellor, Tacitus , ch. The Historian as Moralist
Colin
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Colin »

On the question of one man being both prefect and procurator as a 'dual office', Richard Carrier (I know, I know, but...) has made some lucid points to the effect that one man could be both at the same time. It's in his article ''On the Dual Office of Procurator and Prefect'. Google it and you'll find it on his richardcarrier.info site.

This would remove the procurator/prefect objection to the authenticity of Annals 15:44.

Colin
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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few arguments on the authenticity

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote:Sed non ope humana, non largitionibus principis aut deum placamentis decedebat infamia, quin iussum incendium crederetur. ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque. igitur primum correpti qui fatebantur, deinde indicio eorum multitudo ingens haud proinde in crimine incendii quam odio humani generis convicti sunt. et pereuntibus addita ludibria, ut ferarum tergis contecti laniatu canum interirent aut crucibus adfixi aut flammandi atque, ubi defecisset dies, in usu{m} nocturni luminis urerentur. hortos suos ei spectaculo Nero obtulerat, et circense ludicrum edebat, habitu aurigae permixtus plebi vel curriculo insistens. unde quamquam adversus sontes et novissima exempla meritos miseratio oriebatur, tamquam non utilitate publica, sed in saevitiam unius absumerentur.

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good but rather to glut the cruelty of one man that they were being destroyed.[/box]
Argument 1

A - Consequently, to get rid of the report,
B - ...... Nero fastened the guilt and
C - ............ inflicted the most exquisite tortures on
D - ....................... a class hated for their abominations,
E - ................................ called Chrestians by the populace.
E’ - ............................... Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme
..................................... penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our
..................................... procurators, Pontius Pilatus,
D’ - ...................... and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment,
............................ again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even
............................ in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world
............................ find their centre and become popular.
C’ - .............. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon
................... their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the
................... crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was
................... added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and
................... perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt,
................... to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.
B’ - ..... Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus
........... while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.
A’ - Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose
.... a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good but rather to glut
.... the cruelty of one man that they were being destroyed.
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Re: few arguments on the authenticity

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote:auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
Argument 2 - The style of Tacitus

1) word usage

...Tiberio imperitante” (during the reign of Tiberius)
Annales 3, 24: ... Tiberio imperitante; Annales 4, 62: ... imperitante Tiberio; Annales 13, 32: ... imperitante Claudio; Annales 13, 42: ... imperitante Claudio

... per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum” (by the procurator, Pontius Pilatus)
Annales 12, 21: ... per Iunium Cilonem, procuratorem Ponti (After this, Mithridates was given up and brought to Rome by Junius Cilo, the procurator of Pontus)

...supplicio adfectus erat” (suffered the extreme penalty)
Annales 5, 9: ... supplicio adfici virginem (punishment of a virgin)


2) line of thought and word usage

- troublemakers (auctor) and Roman authorities with names and titles

Annales 15, 44
Christus, from whom the name had its origin (auctor nominis), suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus
Annales 4,27
Originator of the movement T. Curtisius (auctor tumultus T. Curtisius) ... Curtius Lupus, the quæstor broke up the seditious combination in its very first beginnings (Curtius Lupus quaestor) ... Staius, a tribune, with a strong detachment, by whom the ringleader himself, with his most daring followers, were brought prisoners to Rome (Staius tribunus)


- a movement is stopped for a moment by an execution, but then broke out again

Annales 15, 44
Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (supplicio) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked (repressaque) for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome,
Annales 1, 38
Meanwhile there was an outbreak among the Chauci, begun by some veterans of the mutinous legions on garrison duty. They were quelled (repressi) for a time by the instant execution (supplicio) of two soldiers. ... Then, when the commotion increased, ...

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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by Bernard Muller »

Tacitus in 'History of the Jews', Bk V, Ch V, wrote:
"They [the Jews, likely the Hellenized ones] also look on the souls of those that die in battle, or are put to death [as Jesus?] for their crimes, as eternal."
I do not know of any evidence about Jews believing their ones put to death for their crimes would have their soul made eternal.
I think that Tacitus might have thought of Jesus' execution & later beliefs of Jewish Christians, and then generalized when writing the above.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spin
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Re: few arguments on the authenticity

Post by spin »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:Argument 1

A - Consequently, to get rid of the report,
B - ...... Nero fastened the guilt and
C - ............ inflicted the most exquisite tortures on
D - ....................... a class hated for their abominations,
E - ................................ called Chrestians by the populace.
E’ - ............................... Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme
..................................... penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our
..................................... procurators, Pontius Pilatus,
D’ - ...................... and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment,
............................ again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even
............................ in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world
............................ find their centre and become popular.
C’ - .............. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon
................... their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the
................... crime of firing the city as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was
................... added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and
................... perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt,
................... to serve as a nightly illumination when daylight had expired.
B’ - ..... Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus
........... while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car.
A’ - Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose
.... a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good but rather to glut
.... the cruelty of one man that they were being destroyed.
I know Tacitus uses chiastic alliteration and sentential chiasms, but does he ever use narrative chiasms? Doesn't this seem to be a good argument for christian origin?
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iskander
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Re: Arguments concerning the Testimonium Taciteum.

Post by iskander »

So, we have Tacitus on the menu again!
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