Testimonium Taciteum

[Peter Kirby]

I suppose the most that can be said is that this can be argued, probably, to be in error, but, if so, it means nothing more than that Tacitus may have been guilty of an anachronism. It's easily understood as such whether stemming from Tacitus or an interpolator.

Rubbish, Peter. Tacitus clearly understands the cursus honorum, having himself been through the whole process eventually reaching the rank of consul. This is a person who had first hand experience of the whole gamut of administratorial positions. He supplies crucial evidence as to when procurators (a Roman official outside the cursus honorum) gained proxy juridical power that enabled them to govern provinces and thus be over lesser positions in the cursus honorum. This he indicates was under Claudius. He makes clear in Hist 5.9 that Claudius sent equites and liberti (both inelligible for the cursus honorum) to govern Judea. That Tacitus then introduces the anachronism despite his expert knowledge of Roman administration and its history is discountable.

For whatever it matters, I've been wanting to look in detail into the suggestion that this passage in Tacitus has been interpolated for some time now. Perhaps sometime soon I can get around to it. I do have an open mind. Perhaps you can suggest any recommended reading here.

[spin]

Here is a table of terms used by Josephus to describe the Roman governors of Judea. It probably needs checking, but it should be indicative here. (Forget about the asterisks.)

Governor	BJ	AJ
Coponius	epitropos, 2.117	-
M.Ambivulus	-	eparxos, 18.33
A.Rufus	-	-
V.Gratus	-	eparxos, 18.33
P.Pilatus	epitropos, 2.169	hgemwn, 18.55
Marcellus	-	-
Marullus	-	-
Cusp.Fadus	epitropos, 2.220	eparxos, 19.363*
T.Alexander	epitropos, 2.220	-*
V.Cumanus	-* 2.223	-
Felix	epitropos, 2.247	epitropos, 20.162
P.Festus	~epitropos, 2.271	eparxos, 20.193
L.Albinus	implied ~epitropos, 2.272	eparxos, 20.197
G.Florus	implied ~epitropos, 2.277	hgemwn, 18.25

The first thing you notice is that he basically used επιτροπος for everything that had legs in BJ, then in the later work he used it only once, for Felix, generally preferring επαρχος in AJ, though he uses ηγεμων twice.

I hope the point is evident with regard to using Greek terms to translate Roman governors.

[Bernard Muller]

From Josephus' Wars, 2.169

Now Pilate, who was sent as procurator into Judea by Tiberius, sent by night those images of Caesar that are called ensigns into Jerusalem.

'Procurator' is ἐπίτροπος in the Greek text.

From Josephus' Wars, 2.220

so that Claudius made the country [Judea] a Roman province, and sent Cuspius Fadus to be its procurator, and after him Tiberius Alexander

'Procurator' is ἐπίτροπον in the Greek text.

From Josephus' Wars, 2.271

NOW it was that Festus succeeded Felix as procurator, and made it his business to correct those that made disturbances in the country.

'Procurator' is ἐπιτροπὴν in the Greek text.

From Josephus' Wars, 2.271

and Marcus Antonius Julianus, procurator of Judea:

(in 70 CE)
'Procurator' is ἐπίτροπος in the Greek text.

Cordially, Bernard

[spin]

For whatever it matters, I've been wanting to look in detail into the suggestion that this passage in Tacitus has been interpolated for some time now. Perhaps sometime soon I can get around to it. I do have an open mind. Perhaps you can suggest any recommended reading here.

There's none that I know of. This is within biblical interest, so dominated by christian scholarship.

[spin]

From Josephus' Wars, 2.169

Now Pilate, who was sent as procurator into Judea by Tiberius, sent by night those images of Caesar that are called ensigns into Jerusalem.

'Procurator' is ἐπίτροπος in the Greek text.

From Josephus' Wars, 2.220

so that Claudius made the country [Judea] a Roman province, and sent Cuspius Fadus to be its procurator, and after him Tiberius Alexander

'Procurator' is ἐπίτροπον in the Greek text.

From Josephus' Wars, 2.271

NOW it was that Festus succeeded Felix as procurator, and made it his business to correct those that made disturbances in the country.

'Procurator' is ἐπιτροπὴν in the Greek text.

From Josephus' Wars, 2.271

and Marcus Antonius Julianus, procurator of Judea:

(in 70 CE)
'Procurator' is ἐπίτροπος in the Greek text.

Cordially, Bernard

FFS, Bernard, don't be silly. You can't expect to use an English translation of a Greek text to help you understand Roman administratorial positions. Look at the table I supplied above your post to try to stop this sort of nonsense.

[Bernard Muller]

So, what would be the correct word for (Roman official) "procurator" in Greek? And in which text would it be found?

Cordially, Bernard

[spin]

So, what would be the correct word for (Roman official) "procurator" in Greek? And in which text would it be found?

That's a little like asking what the correct word for "Muller" is in Greek.

I have provided a fair amount of information to indicate that a simple translation won't work for the purposes of this discussion. The usage of both "procurator" and επιτροπος changes through time.

[stephan happy huller]

I just happened to be reading a Coptic text where Pilate is called a hegemwn (see toward the end):

https://www.academia.edu/5402903/A_Brit ... f_Gamaliel

[Bernard Muller]

That's a little like asking what the correct word for "Muller" is in Greek.

I have provided a fair amount of information to indicate that a simple translation won't work for the purposes of this discussion. The usage of both "procurator" and επιτροπος changes through time.

Muller is a name, procurator is a title. That's different. The Greek for procurator, if that word had Latin origin, would be likely procuratoros (nominative). Apparently, there is nothing close to that in Greek ancient literature.

Cordially, Bernard

[spin]

That's a little like asking what the correct word for "Muller" is in Greek.

I have provided a fair amount of information to indicate that a simple translation won't work for the purposes of this discussion. The usage of both "procurator" and επιτροπος changes through time.

Muller is a name, procurator is a title. That's different.

Jeez, I was hoping for a bit more thought than that, even though the comment was lighthearted. "Muller" could of course be taken as the German word sans umlaut which in English is "miller", so there is potential to translate it. It is the inappropriateness of translating it that I was aiming at. Terms in one language that have a unique cultural or political value in the culture or polity cannot be translated, only given a nearest equivalent or some eqivalent based on word parts or even etymology. Translation works on commonality of notions, so how do you translate "czar", "quaestor", "quarterback" or the Hindu "avatar"?

The Greek for procurator, if that word had Latin origin, would be likely procuratoros (nominative). Apparently, there is nothing close to that in Greek ancient literature.

As "procurator" comes from a cultural context that implied guardianship, you could try "epitropos". It might be seen as a household equivalent of subordinate agent and you could try "hyparch". Or some other approach. Then after a period of adjustment you might eventually settle on one over the other casual attempts. It would not be a translation so much as a compromise solution.