Testimonium Taciteum

[stephan happy huller]

Why wasn't the Latin term just taken over in Greek? We see this in Aramaic all the time with respect to Greek and Latin terms associated with rule and authority

[spin]

Why wasn't the Latin term just taken over in Greek? We see this in Aramaic all the time with respect to Greek and Latin terms associated with rule and authority

They didn't know that people would be discussing the issue a few thousand years later. In the moment a functional equivalent is usually sufficient. Isn't "ball distributor" functional for "quarterback"?

[stephan happy huller]

But in most languages the original English dominates. 'Le weekend,' 'le computer' etc. I forget what the Quebecois (in Quebec football is quite popular) call the quarterback but my guess is that it would be 'le quarterback.'

Qui a su?

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback

[spin]

But in most languages the original English dominates. 'Le weekend,' 'le computer' etc. I forget what the Quebecois (in Quebec football is quite popular) call the quarterback but my guess is that it would be 'le quarterback.'

Qui a su?

Jesus, cultural hegemony, eh? Transparent.

Direct borrowing is one of the later possibilities. First, you look for a native word, then you try to construct one, then you might translate by parts and finally, you just borrow. The straight borrow was never a frequent process until the last half century of international cultural hegemony. Remember words like Fernsehen and Kraftfahrzeug? These are typical German examples of word formation to deal with new concepts. The first is a translation of the parts of "television", while the second is a completely new German construction, functionally describing what the object, "automobile". What's the old German word for computer... Rechner? Languages in the past frequently sought solutions from their own resources.

And just think of what happened to Augustus in Greek: Σεβαστος. (But then Caesar, being a name, wasn't translated as δασυς—"hairy".)

[stephan happy huller]

Aramaic speakers had a hard time with getting their tongues around "Caesar"

[stephan happy huller]

But now das Auto, der Komputer etc

[spin]

But now das Auto, der Komputer etc

I think you're still missing the point. We should not be looking at modern contexts with electronic media to reduce individual reactions. That doesn't reflect the linguistic dynamics of the past. We see that there was a native German approach to dealing with imported concepts. Native approaches are what you should expect before modern media cultural homogeneity.

[stephan happy huller]

The German adoption of "handy" for cellphone is bizarre

[DCHindley]

Let's get to the source:

Philo, Embassy to Gaius 1:299 as translated by C. D. Yonge) Pilate was one of the emperor's lieutenants, having been appointed governor of Judaea.

Philo , Legatio ad Gaium 1:299, from The Philo Concordance Databas) Πιλᾶτος [Pilate] ἦν [being] τῶν [of the (emperor)] ὑπάρχων [see ὕπαρχος below] ἐπίτροπος [see ἐπίτροπος below] ἀποδεδειγμένος [being appointed over] τῆς Ἰουδαίας [the Judaeans]

According to Liddell-Scott-Jones:

ὕπαρχ-ος , ὁ,
A. subordinate commander, lieutenant, “ὕ. ἄλλων . . οὐχ ὅλων στρατηγός” S.Aj.1105; “ὕ. ὢν τῷ ἀδελφῷ” Luc.DMort.12.2; “ὑπάρχοις τοῖς ἐμοῖς” E.Hel.1432.
2. subordinate governor, of satraps, etc., Hdt.3.70, 4.166, al., X.An.4.4.4; “Ἰωνίας” Th.8.31; “Ἑλλησποντίων” Sor.Vit.Hippocr.8; in the Seleucid kingdom, OGI225.36 (Didyma, iii B. C.).
b. = Lat. proconsul, Epigr.Gr.906 (Gortyn); = legatus, “ὕ. Αὐτοκράτορος Καίσαρος” Inscr.Prien.247, cf. App.BC5.26, D.C.36.36, al.; ὕ. Αἰγύπτου, = praefectus Aegypti, Arr.An.3.5.7; ὕ. τοῦ ἱεροῦ πραιτωρίου, = praefectus praetorio, IGRom.3.435 (Pisidia), cf. Lyd. Mag.1.14, al., Gloss.; so ὕ. alone, in verse, of the praefectus praetorio Illyrici, IG22.4224 (v A. D.), cf. 4226 (v A. D.), 7.94 (Megara, v. A. D.); ὁ τῆς πόλεως ὕ., = praefectus urbi, Lyd.Mag.1.38, cf. 2.19.
II. subject to one, “τῶν Καρχηδονίων” Plb.7.9.5.

ἐπίτροπ-ος , ον, （ἐπιτρέπω）
A. one to whom the charge of anything is entrusted, steward, trustee, administrator, c.gen. rei, “τῶν ἑωυτοῦ” Hdt.1.108 ; “τῶν οἰκίων” Id.3.63 : abs., X.Oec.12.3, D.21.78, 27.19, Ev.Luc.8.3, etc.; steward, messman, X.Cyr.4.2.35 : metaph., “τῶν [τοῦ Πρωταγόρου] ἐ.” Pl.Tht.165a.
2. = Lat. procurator, “Καίσαρος ἐ.” Str.3.4.20, Plu.2.813e, etc.; ἐ. Σεβαστοῦ, -τῶν, OG1502.10 (Aezani, ii A.D.), 501.2 (Tralles, ii A.D.); “ἐ. τῆς Ἠπείρου” Arr.Epict.3.4.1 ; “τῶν μετάλλων” OG1678.5 (Egypt, ii A.D.), etc.
3. governor, viceroy, οἱ ἐ. τῆς Μέμφιος, Μιλήτου ἐ., Hdt.3.27,5.30, cf. 106.
4. executor, PPetr.3p.9, al.(iii B.C.).
II. c.gen.pers., trustee, guardian, Hdt.4.76, Th.2.80, etc.; “ἐ. τινι παίδων” Hyp.Epit.42 : abs., Pl.Lg.924b, etc.; “ὑπὸ ἐπιτρόπους εἶναι” Ep.Gal.4.2 ; “καθιστάναι ἐ.” PRyl.153.18(ii A.D.): metaph., guardian, protector, “θεὸς ἐ. ἐών” Pi.O.1.106.

Wait, I get it, "Pilate, a 'yes man' (of the one who cannot be named), was appointed mess hall supervisor of the Judaeans." You were right! One can choose any ol' English word to translate the individual Greek words.

DCH

From Carrier's article:

Similarly, Jones demonstrates that this fact had long been so well known that the Jewish ambassador Philo, even before the reign of Claudius, knew that Pontius Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect, as he tells us Pilate was “one of the prefects [hyparchoi] appointed procurator [epitropos] of Judaea.”

Quote in red from Philo of Alexandria, "on the embassy to Gaius", XXXVIII, 299.

Carrier's logic, depending on Greek, is bound to fail. When did επιτροπος come to be the translation of "procurator"? Before or after procurators gained proxy juridical power from Claudius? The term επιτροπος is used three times in the new testament (Mt 20:8, Lk 8:3, Gal 4:2), but never to mean "procurator". Before the Romans came along it was used by various Greek historians and politicians. So επιτροπος had a life of its own and one needs to demonstrate when it was equated with "procurator" in administrative language. One cannot assume that when Philo uses the term it bears the translational equivalent of "procurator". The same problem will also apply to υπαρχος. This latter indicates a subordinate administrator, in Herodotus under a satrap, in Strabo (11.2.18) under Mithridates Eupator and even in Julian (Against the Galileans 148b) talking of national gods with regard to the creator of the universe being like υπαρχοι of a king, ie subordinates.

When the exact value of these terms doesn't matter, they get translated at the whim of the translator. It is nothing to build a linguistic argument on.

[andrewcriddle]

Rubbish, Peter. Tacitus clearly understands the cursus honorum, having himself been through the whole process eventually reaching the rank of consul. This is a person who had first hand experience of the whole gamut of administratorial positions. He supplies crucial evidence as to when procurators (a Roman official outside the cursus honorum) gained proxy juridical power that enabled them to govern provinces and thus be over lesser positions in the cursus honorum. This he indicates was under Claudius. He makes clear in Hist 5.9 that Claudius sent equites and liberti (both inelligible for the cursus honorum) to govern Judea. That Tacitus then introduces the anachronism despite his expert knowledge of Roman administration and its history is discountable.

One problem with the History 5.9 passage is that, read without any other knowledge, it implies that Judea was continually governed by Herodian client kings until the reign of Claudius. Using it as evidence of Tacitus' view of the status of the Roman governor of Judea in the reign of Tiberius, (of whose existence the passage does not hint) is IMO dubious.

Andrew Criddle