Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

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Bernard Muller
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Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Bernard Muller »

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Maybe the numbers themselves were not the point of Bernard's post. Maybe the whole thing was just a heuristic device designed to show how, though each individual datum might not mean much on its own, they combine to create an overall probability that the event in question happened. Historians use a sort of procedure like this sometimes, which Gilbert J. Garraghan calls "cumulative evidence" on page 305 of A Guide to Historical Method:
Cumulative or converging evidence is virtually circumstantial. It is "a heaping up" (L. cumulus) of bits of evidence, individually never more than probable, and often only slightly so, until they form a mass of evidence, the net result of which is certainty. But, as already noted, the resulting certainty does not issue directly from the mass or cumulus of probabilities, since no number of mere probabilities added together can logically produce certainty. To produce such effect, one must invoke the "principle of sufficient reason," by arguing that the only possible explanation why so many bits of evidence point to the same alleged fact, is that the fact is objectively true.
I am not sure how valid any given numbers would be for such an exercise.

To me it seems that the use of numbers would best involve a heavy use of statistics. For example, one might accumulate data until it becomes apparent that 85% of the time, when an ancient author uses term X, s/he fails to also use term Y, a synonym to X. But this or that Pauline letter uses both term X and term Y, so perhaps one of those terms belongs to an interpolation. Even here, though, I am not sure what that number, 85%, would mean. Would it mean that there is an 85% chance that Paul penned only one of those terms, and thus only a 15% chance that the other term is not part of an interpolation? Would it be that direct? It does not seem so to me, but my experience with statistics is pretty limited.
Let's say we give 50% probability that the following shows that Jesus called Christ existed as a man on earth:
1) Descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:16)
2) Descendant of Israelites (Ro 9:4-5)
3) Descendant of Jesse (Ro 15:12)
4) Descendant of David (Ro 1:3)
5) Having brothers by blood, one of them being James (1 Cor 9:5, Gal 1:19)
6) becoming from a woman (Gal 4:4)
7) From the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14)
8) Tacitus' Annals 15.44
9) Josephus' Antiquities XX, IX, 1

The probability being lowered to 50% would be in consideration that:
1) The epistle verses in question might be part of interpolations and (or the whole epistle) written after one or several gospels were "published".
2) Mythicists (or others) arguing (far-fetched) interpretations showing otherwise (that is not showing the past existence on earth of a man Jesus called Christ)

Then, according to the equation P = (1 - p)^N = (1 - 0.5)^9,
the overall probability (P) that Jesus called Christ existed as a man on earth would be 99.8%.
Even with only three of these points, the overall probability would still be at 87.5%.

Note: If assigning different probabilities for each point, the equation becomes: P = 1 - [(1-p1)*(1-p2)*...*(1-pN)]

Cordially, Bernard
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Peter Kirby »

Before going any further, you might want to look into the concept of "independence" of the probability of events. And consider how this might be readjusted under the assumption that these probabilities are not independent. (The assumption of independence should not be made here.)

I am not arguing with you. Have all the fun you want. But you would benefit from being literate in the concepts you invoke.
Note: If assigning different probabilities for each point, the equation becomes: P = 1 - [(1-p1)*(1-p2)*...*(1-pN)]
To make the adjustment, p2 needs to be the conditional probability of event 2, assuming event 1 did not occur. And p3 needs to be the conditional probability of event 3, assuming events 1 and 2 did not occur. And so on.
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
Before going any further, you might want to look into the concept of "independence" of the probability of events. And consider how this might be readjusted under the assumption that these probabilities are not independent. (The assumption of independence should not be made here.)
So what would make these probabilities not independent of each other?
Note: If assigning different probabilities for each point, the equation becomes: P = 1 - [(1-p1)*(1-p2)*...*(1-pN)]
To make the adjustment, p2 needs to be the conditional probability of event 2, assuming event 1 did not occur. And p3 needs to be the conditional probability of event 3, assuming events 1 and 2 did not occur. And so on.
I got that from the last post at http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1
If p1 = p2 = ... = pN, then the equation can be simplified as P = 1 - (1 - p)^N, as was discussed before.

Cordially, Bernard
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MrMacSon
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:
Let's say we give 50% probability that the following shows that Jesus called Christ existed as a man on earth:

1) Descendant of Abraham (Gal 3:16)
2) Descendant of Israelites (Ro 9:4-5)
3) Descendant of Jesse (Ro 15:12)
4) Descendant of David (Ro 1:3)
5) Having brothers by blood, one of them being James (1 Cor 9:5, Gal 1:19)

6) becoming from a woman (Gal 4:4)

7) From the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14)

8) Tacitus' Annals 15.44
9) Josephus' Antiquities XX, IX, 1
As Peter has alluded, a lot of these points are not independent - points 1-5, & 7.

Hardly any can be considered facts.
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
As Peter has alluded, a lot of these points are not independent - points 1-5, & 7.
Why points 1-5 & 7 would not be independent of each other?
Hardly any can be considered facts.
Why not? I do not care if Abraham, Jesse and David existed or not, they were believed to have been true humans on earth and that's what count. But certainly Israelites existed (my point 2) as for also James, that Paul met several times according to Galatians (my point 5)

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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Peter Kirby »

This is a really, really, really bad way to absorb information about mathematical probability.

There's too much bias and ego involved. It's like trying to learn to count while you're adding up your daddy's infidelities or your own personal mistakes. It's not a cool way to learn the subject, and you'll get a lot further considering more innocuous examples.

Learn the math first.
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Peter,
This is a really, really, really bad way to absorb information about mathematical probability.

There's too much bias and ego involved. It's like trying to learn to count while you're adding up your daddy's infidelities or your own personal mistakes. It's not a cool way to learn the subject, and you'll get a lot further considering more innocuous examples.

Learn the math first.
But I learned this math from you, and also confirmed by two fellows at http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1

From a previous post of yours:
And consider how this might be readjusted under the assumption that these probabilities are not independent. (The assumption of independence should not be made here.)
Can this assumption that these probabilities are not independent be evidenced? and what would its probability?
If there is no (or little) evidence for support, then that probability would be just a very low possibility, and taken care by (and part of) the other side of my 50%.
Too many times, I saw assumption (at best weakly evidenced) thrown against strong historicist piece of evidence, with the expected result that piece of evidence should be made void, just like it did not exist.
Of course I do not agree with that.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:
  • But I learned this math from you ...
Random events, like rolling a dice, is quite a different application to what you are seeking to do here.
Bernard Muller wrote: and also confirmed by two fellows at http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1
Noteworthy is -

engineer Tue 8 Nov, 2016 12:44 pm
  • @mullerb, You read it backwards.
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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
Random events, like rolling a dice, is quite a different application to what you are seeking to do here.
The equation is about probabilities and not about random events: http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1.
This is math about probabilities and beyond criticism. What can be criticized is the value of the probabilities.
Bernard Muller wrote:
and also confirmed by two fellows at http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1
Noteworthy is -
engineer Tue 8 Nov, 2016 12:44 pm

@mullerb, You read it backwards.


Read the context! Yes I understood his equation wrongly but they put me straight: http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1

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Re: Probability about Jesus (Christ) existence on earth

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:to MrMacSon,
Random events, like rolling a dice, is quite a different application to what you are seeking to do here.
The equation is about probabilities and not about random events: http://able2know.org/topic/352494-1.
This is math about probabilities and beyond criticism.
The math you are trying to apply is about predicting outcomes of random events.

You are applying it in the wrong situation.
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