Was Paul really the Last ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Was Paul really the Last ?

Post by Giuseppe »

ἔσχατον δὲ πάντων ὡσπερεὶ τῷ ἐκτρώματι ὤφθη κἀμοί.
And last of all, as of one born out of due time, he was seen of me also
(1 Corinthians 15:8)

So Carrier:
I should also note that Paul does not say ‘one untimely born’ in the sense of ‘born late’–he says he related to Jesus as an abortion [ektrôma], which is a premature birth, not a late one, and in fact worse, as it typically indicated an outright miscarriage. And Paul says he related to Jesus as an abortion not because he was appointed late but “because [Paul] persecuted the church” (1 Cor. 15:9), and for no other reason. The term ektrôma was in antiquity a term of contempt, implying monstrosity or rejection or enfeeblement. Paul thought of himself as a rejected monster because he did awful things to the church he now loved; but Jesus was willing to overlook that, and appear even to a rejected monster (an abortus) such as himself.
http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4573

Assume that the verse 1 Cor 15:9 is an interpolation (as all the legend of Paul persecutor) but save the rest.

Which ''other reason'' was then the factor that moved Paul to label himself a premature born ?

The proposition would be translated so:
And last of all, as of one born BEFORE of due time, he was seen of me also
(1 Corinthians 15:8)

Possible interpretation:

even if Paul is apparently the LAST OF ALL, he is really born BEFORE of due time, because God revealed in him his Son ALREADY from the time before his birth.

Galatians 1:15
But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him.
Under that light, Paul is really giving the real theological reason of the his nick: PAUL-US.

The LEAST OF ALL is really the more GREATEST among all.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was Paul really the Last ?

Post by Giuseppe »

Paul is conceding that he is the Last of all only apparently.

But not because he saw Jesus AFTER Peter and company.

...but because he was convinced of having the Son ''in me'' just only now (as an adult), when in reality he possessed the Son ''in me'' already even before the his birth.

In other terms, a Peter could have seen the archangel Jesus before of Paul, but he didn't have Jesus ''in him'' before the birth, differently from Paul.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was Paul really the Last ?

Post by Giuseppe »

The abortion became later a symbol of the Demiurge.


But note what was the principal feature of the Demiurge : not to realize to be a less god than someone else. Not to know himself.

The error of Paul - the reason because he is ''miscarriage'' - is that he realized that he possessed the Son ''in him'' only after that Peter saw for the first time Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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