lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

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ficino
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lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by ficino » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:40 pm

Hi guys, it's been at least a year since I've been on here. I hope all are doing well. spin, it's good to see you back in action. When I left, you had been absent for a long time.

So, there's already a new Handbook to Josephus, with a chapter on the TF by Alice Wheatley.

Anyway, has anyone weighed in on the lead tablets now in Jordan, that seem to have a tie to 1st century Christianity?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... chers.html

StephenGoranson
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Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by StephenGoranson » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:03 am

Reused lead for modern forgery, probably.

StephenGoranson
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Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by StephenGoranson » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:19 am

http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2011_0 ... 8247746754
"Hebrew-Inscribed-Metal-Codices Watch: A Fake" and, if interested, links there.

Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by Diogenes the Cynic » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:51 am

It's a mixture of different scripts lifted from different sources in different eras, including Bar Kochba coins. The alleged "portait" of Jesus is a copy of the Sepphoris Mosaic. There is also some random Greek letters that are just gibberish. Every real expert has basically laughed at this thing. It might really be old lead, but the inscriptions are forgeries, and ham-handed forgeries at that.

StephenGoranson
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Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by StephenGoranson » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:45 am

So far I have encountered no good reason to regard the recently-publicized lead tablets as anything other than modern fakes, but here are two more sites on them, if interested:

1) https://www.academia.edu/30292465/The_J ... _Statement
(mentioned at:
http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2016_1 ... 1090192367
Samuel Zinner wrote to claim, among other things, in his view (a) that some of the objects are quite old, (b) that they are Jewish and not Christian, and (c) that David Elkington is an unreliable interpreter.

2) The Centre for the Study of the Jordanian Lead Books has a website:
http://www.leadbookcentre.com/
Among the statements that I find unpersuasive, the start of a paper
http://www.leadbookcentre.com/downloads ... odices.pdf
by Margaret Barker:
"The oldest text in the New Testament is the Book of Revelation..." This is her view; not mine.

Speaking of fakes, a report on an SBL session on attempts at dating papyrus mss (including the Jesus' Wife case):
https://facesandvoices.wordpress.com/20 ... -a-report/

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DCHindley
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Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by DCHindley » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:10 pm

Stephen,

While I agree these things are not likely to be ancient artifacts, I have reservations about the general idea that they MUST be ancient, or they MUST be modern fakes. There should be ground in the middle.

For instance, over the last few hundred years the Levant has been the target destination of countless pilgrims. Some were there during times of war, others on business, but there were a number of wealthy sorts who visited out of curiosity. Now when one goes sightseeing in any unfamiliar clime, one wants to bring something home to amaze the children, co-workers, friends and associates.

There may have been some bona-fide old stuff floating around to sell them, but not enough to satisfy demand. Some locals, no doubt, artificially increased the supply of things to sell at the markets.

Like many "fly-by-night" enterprises, all it takes is an arrest, a death - accidental or intentional - or a need for the original crew to relocate quickly, and some assets may be abandoned. The metal shop goes on under new management, and the metals worked with change too, making any alcove where leftover stocks were dumped a great place to throw out old pickling or cleaning chemicals, accelerating the oxidation of the lead codices.

I dunno ...

DCH

PS: Has anyone else noticed that the lead rings that bind the codices appear to have been extruded through a die? How recent is the technology to extrude melted or softened metals through a die?
StephenGoranson wrote:So far I have encountered no good reason to regard the recently-publicized lead tablets as anything other than modern fakes, but here are two more sites on them, if interested:

1) https://www.academia.edu/30292465/The_J ... _Statement
(mentioned at:
http://paleojudaica.blogspot.com/2016_1 ... 1090192367
Samuel Zinner wrote to claim, among other things, in his view (a) that some of the objects are quite old, (b) that they are Jewish and not Christian, and (c) that David Elkington is an unreliable interpreter.

2) The Centre for the Study of the Jordanian Lead Books has a website:
http://www.leadbookcentre.com/
Among the statements that I find unpersuasive, the start of a paper
http://www.leadbookcentre.com/downloads ... odices.pdf
by Margaret Barker:
"The oldest text in the New Testament is the Book of Revelation..." This is her view; not mine.

Speaking of fakes, a report on an SBL session on attempts at dating papyrus mss (including the Jesus' Wife case):
https://facesandvoices.wordpress.com/20 ... -a-report/

StephenGoranson
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by StephenGoranson » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:48 am

DCH,

If the rings were extruded through a die (if examination by experts established that), yes, that might be a dating factor, though lead may be malleable enough to produce these rather crude items in another manner.
Of course, yes, anyone is free to propose a medieval date, which might be more plausible if one presented close parallels dating earlier than 2008.

SG

StephenGoranson
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: lead tablets from Jordan - Jesus?

Post by StephenGoranson » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:29 am

Speaking of earlier texts on lead widely regarded as fake: the lead books of Sacromonte in Spain. These lead-laced sheets were claimed to be deposited by first century Arabic-speaking Christians.... But were unknown until the 16th century. So a parallel (neither ancient nor modern) might suggest forgery.

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